Bypass Starter Solenoid

[sailingchance]

Hey all, So I finally got my starter rebuilt here in Eeuthera. It was a complete rebuild, armiture, coils, brushes, bendix, etc. So it should be brandy new right? Mechanic said he tested it and the solenoid. All work fine. Unfortunately, I still cant get the engine to start. Before I had a click from the solenoid but not action at the starter. Now I dont even get a click.

I checked all the wiring. I have key ignition. I am getting 12.7V at the coil and 12.7v at the distribution block leading to the solenoid. But on the solenoid itself, I am only getting 4.25V. Is the solenoid bad all of the sudden?

Is there a way to bypass it? I've tried jumping it across the solenoid posts, which yields nothing.

Everything is closed here until Tuesday, but I'd love to leave tomorrow and pick up a new solenoid in the next town. Any thoughts?

[sailingchance]

Also...

Solenoid + to the Block - yields 12.7. It has to be the solenoid right? I've tried whacking it. nothing. How to I bypass. I know I've heard someone mention a way.

[sailingchance]

Update

To clarify whats going on, I have an early model starter with a 4 post solenoid. Two large posts and two small in between. One large post mounts to the starter frame/bracket. The other large post is the BAT and IGN +. The two small posts in between are NEG. One gets wired to the block (at the starter mounting bolt) The other gets wired to the Ignition NEG post on the key switch.

I am getting 12V from Solenoid + to the grounded NEG terminal. But only 6V from the terminal connected to the ignition switch. Is the switch bad? When I turn the switch to ON, My instrument panel shows 12.7V. But I dont get a click when I try to start. If I jump it with a screw driver, I get a spark, but nothing else.

I tried a lead directly from the battery NEG to the IGN NEG post on the solenoid. When I turn the key, I can see the power draw in the instrument panel but nothing at the solenoid. When I try to jump it, I get spark, but nothing else.

This has to be the solenoid right? The wires are all tight, new and clean.

Thanks for the help!

[hanleyclifford]

Couple of things; the two small terminals are not to be grounded. One runs from the ignition switch momentary for the starter; the other is not used except as an override - ignore it for now. The terminal on the ignition switch might have an "S" on it.

[sailingchance]

Couple of things; the two small terminals are not to be grounded. One runs from the ignition switch momentary for the starter; the other is not used except as an override - ignore it for now. The terminal on the ignition switch might have an "S" on it.

I'm confused. This is how I had it wired before and it worked perfect. So the NEG (yellow wire from the ignition key switch) goes to one of the small terminals. I tried it that way, I only get 6V or less at that terminal. I removed the wire from the starter mounting bolt to the second small terminal and I have the same result. Nothing.

[ndutton]

Jason,
Check out this thread. It has several Atomic 4 wiring diagrams. I offer it only because you're referring to a yellow wire from the keyswitch to the solenoid as a NEG and it isn't. There is NO negative wire going to any starter terminal and there is NO negative wire attached to the keyswitch.

While you're testing for voltages be sure you're reading to a good ground. The only good ground is the engine block and the tester's point of connection may be compromised by paint or rust.

Double check the ground terminations from the battery to the engine too. They're just as important as the positive wiring.

[67c&ccorv]

So...I'm telling you there is a chance!

http://youtu.be/gqdNe8u-Jsg

[Marian Claire]

Long story short. I started my early A-4 noticed a problem and shut her down. Thrashed around in the engine compartment fixing a leak. When I tried to restart, nothing. Checked voltage at several places with my multimeter. I was getting reading, some normal some not. Worked thru several connections with no improvement. Then I saw it. In my thrashing I had pulled the main ground wire out of its clip on the engine. Bingo instant start.
SC. Did you ever receive my PM back in March about the loan of a starter?
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[sailingchance]

Long story short. I started my early A-4 noticed a problem and shut her down. Thrashed around in the engine compartment fixing a leak. When I tried to restart, nothing. Checked voltage at several places with my multimeter. I was getting reading, some normal some not. Worked thru several connections with no improvement. Then I saw it. In my thrashing I had pulled the main ground wire out of its clip on the engine. Bingo instant start.
SC. Did you ever receive my PM back in March about the loan of a starter?
Dan S/V Marian Claire

Marian, yes thank you. I thought I replied. Forgive me if I did not. It would have been just as time effective to have the parts shipped in. But I sincerely appreciate the offer. Truly. I have checked all the wiring. Everything is connected. So I am still stuck.

Hanley, You are right. I did not know that. In my fixology over proper wire coloring, I just ASSUMED that the yellow wire was a negative and not a momentary positive. (I am still learning I guess).

That being said, Terminal to terminal it is wired correctly (I just thought it was a negative). I DID however try to jump it and attached a wire to that post from the NEG side of the battery to do so. I wonder if that killed the solenoid. If it was the switch before (which I think it could have been, I think my failed understanding and hectic troubleshooting might have killed my solenoid. Is that possible?

Here is how I have it wired (with the correct understanding).

Large Post + : Pos from Battery, BAT(+) from ignition switch
Small Post 1 : Wired to the the starter mounting bolt - serves as a NEG
Small Post 2 : + Yellow wire from ignition switch (the momentary +)
Large Post 2: Mounted to the Starter Frame Bracket. Serves as a negative.

This should be correct. I should be able to jump it with a screw driver simply wired like this, right? When I do, all I get is a spark. When I check for current, I am checking against the block and am ready 12.7V now.

Dont know what else to try.

[hanleyclifford]

Try it this way: large post #1 to starter motor, large post #2 to battery+, small post #1 to keyswitch "S", leave small post #2 empty. If there is another wire on large post #2 it is the + feed to the keyswitch terminal "B". Think of the solenoid as nothing more than a momentary relay switch between the battery and the starter. Edit: Has anyone got that early starter wiring diagram handy?

[ndutton]

I DID however try to jump it and attached a wire to that post from the NEG side of the battery to do so. I wonder if that killed the solenoid.

Entirely possible but instead of wondering we can find out for sure. You can test the solenoid coil winding by measuring resistance between the small 'S' post and the solenoid case ground. It should read around 1.2Ω. Anything substantially higher or lower indicates damage.

Large Post 2: Mounted to the Starter Frame Bracket. Serves as a negative.

Nope, negatory. If you're talking about the large post directly below 'Large Post 1' where the battery cable connects, 'Large Post 2' is attached to a solid strap that enters the starter casing and is insulated as it passes through the casing. It delivers the POSITIVE power to the starter windings through the solenoid.

Stated here in a separate paragraph and in caps for emphasis:
THERE IS NO GROUND ANYWHERE AT THE STARTER OR THE SOLENOID OTHER THAN THE MOUNT TO THE FLYWHEEL HOUSING.

[sailingchance]

OKay, now I am confused

Entirely possible but instead of wondering we can find out for sure. You can test the solenoid coil winding by measuring resistance between the small 'S' post and the solenoid case ground. It should read around 1.2Ω. Anything substantially higher or lower indicates damage.

Nope, negatory. If you're talking about the large post directly below 'Large Post 1' where the battery cable connects, 'Large Post 2' is attached to a solid strap that enters the starter casing and is insulated as it passes through the casing. It delivers the POSITIVE power to the starter windings through the solenoid.

Stated here in a separate paragraph and in caps for emphasis:
THERE IS NO GROUND ANYWHERE AT THE STARTER OR THE SOLENOID OTHER THAN THE MOUNT TO THE FLYWHEEL HOUSING.

No ground/NEG? How is that possible? If I were to take the starter off and hook it up to a battery, Wouldnt one large post attach to BAT + and one large Post (the one mounted to the frame on the starter) attach to the BAT -?

[hanleyclifford]

No ground/NEG? How is that possible? If I were to take the starter off and hook it up to a battery, Wouldnt one large post attach to BAT + and one large Post (the one mounted to the frame on the starter) attach to the BAT -?

The body of the starter is the ground to the engine block which is connected to batt (-). If you were to take the starter off the engine and try to test it on a bench you would have to run a big jumper from the starter body to to the negative side of the battery. The solenoid only conducts the circuit from batt + to the starter itself momentarily when one of the small terminals is energized from the key switch (or jumped from any where in the batt+ circuit).

[hanleyclifford]

Neil? Help!

wiring diagram!!

[ndutton]

wiring diagram!!

Post #6, already provided several, True Grit John too.