Idles great, no power in midrange, then revs freely

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  • moir
    Frequent Contributor
    • Sep 2011
    • 6

    Idles great, no power in midrange, then revs freely

    Hello. Different Moir here, but one who knows how to spell. And certainly no expert with the A4!

    I'm trying to help out an old friend with his A4. My background is in outboards so I'm a little out of my depth. CDI I can handle, but what's this distributor thing? And 4 strokes; isn't that two too many?

    My friend has been laid up half the summer with engine troubles. Mostly his problem has been with lack of power and the engine suddenly dying on him. Dockside, I went though the carb and didn't find much. Later we conclusively determined that there was a problem with the electronic ignition system as the ignition module's output to the coil disappeared the moment trouble struck. After obtaining new parts, we found that the particular problem was the optical pickup in the distributor.

    After we replaced both the pickup and the module, the engine started, ran and idled very well. It revved in neutral, holding reasonable RPMs, as you would expect. It seemed to reverse under load fine (we were on a mooring), but this was the extend of the load testing we did.

    Today he tried to take the boat out. In forward he had very little power, no matter how far forward he put the throttle. I went down and had a look, thinking that it probably needed a timing adjustment since we had made that out-of-gear, but no adjusting the timing helped. Essentially the engine would bog after getting off idle with a hollow sound coming from the carb like it was lugging.

    After some experimentation, I pulled the plugs. They were NGK B6S which is about a 6 or a 7 on the Champion heat range, and minus the resistor. They were all sooty. We brushed them off and tried again, but the symptoms didn't change. I've seen cases where an abused spark plug - such as from the over rich from all the missfiring on the old ignition - will fail under load so I was a bit suspicious of them. I located an old set of Champion RJ12 (C or M?) and tried them. These are the only things that changed the symptoms. I seemed to get more power, but after about 2000 rpm the engine would suddenly rev up high. Again, no timing adjustment seemed to help the problem. All the plugs checked dead white on the insulator and slightly crusty on the sleeve.

    I took off the carb again and went through it properly at home. I found a couple small things (float was off, main jet wasn't tight) but nothing big. Tonight I went back down and put in the carb and some fresh plugs, but the problem persists. The bogging might be a bit better but it still refs out.

    Here are a couple videos of what it's doing:



    One is me goosing the throttle in neutral. (~1 sec hollow sound from carb, but takes off pretty quick. I need an opinion if this is "explosive"), the other is in gear while tied to the dock. You can hear the in gear test suddenly take off and I have to back off.

    I'm starting to think that perhaps the prop has gotten fouled up, and is cavitating at higher RPMs. I say this because when it revs up high, the thrust drops off as felt in the spring lines at the dock.

    Further info: Fresh rebuild (not mine, but done by a very competent mechanic). Compression 100-98 on all 4 (my compression tester tends to read a little low at lower values, pumps up in 2 or 3 revs). Timing not quite right but close: ~0-5 degrees at idle and it advances smoothly to about 15-20 BTDC at somewhere near 2000 (no tach). Firing order checked, double checked and triple checked, 1-2-4-3. Spark good on all 4 (jumps at least 9/16", good hot SNAP). No backfires or lean pops. Bumping the choke has no effect.

    So what do you think? I need help: they're talking about taking my wizard cap away!
  • Mark Millbauer
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 195

    #2
    Moir,
    I'm sure you will get many good suggestions but at this point three things to check come to mind:

    Is the choke and cable adjusted and opening and closing correctly? (take of the spark arrestor and make sure)

    Try giving it a little choke while operating in forward and see if that helps.

    Do you have adequate fuel voume and pressure at the carb? (Could be clogged filters, failing pump, vacum leak.)

    Mark
    Mark
    C30 "Kismet"

    Comment

    • ndutton
      Afourian MVP
      • May 2009
      • 9776

      #3
      Any possibility of elevated exhaust backpressure? Often the problem area is at the mixing Tee. Engine can't inhale if it can't exhale.

      100% on the spelling too. Nice!
      Last edited by ndutton; 09-18-2011, 11:09 AM. Reason: Dang, had to fix my own spelling! The pressure is on.
      Neil
      1977 Catalina 30
      San Pedro, California
      prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
      Had my hands in a few others

      Comment

      • tenders
        Afourian MVP
        • May 2007
        • 1451

        #4
        Before I did anything else I would clean the prop. As you point out many of these symptoms sound suspiciously like "foul play" and it doesn't take much barnacling to hamper the prop's effectiveness. With a lot of barnacles the engine can act as if possessed.

        Once clean and still misbehaving, I would run the engine disconnected from the exhaust to see if there's a blockage in the exhaust.

        Comment

        • roadnsky
          Afourian MVP
          • Dec 2008
          • 3127

          #5
          Originally posted by moir View Post
          Hello. Different Moir here, but one who knows how to spell.
          As Neil said... 100% and a gold star!

          ...I seemed to get more power, but after about 2000 rpm the engine would suddenly rev up high.
          Can you explain this in a bit more detail?
          (The engine rpms go higher with no power?)
          If so, you could be cavitating...


          I'm starting to think that perhaps the prop has gotten fouled up, and is cavitating at higher RPMs. I say this because when it revs up high, the thrust drops off as felt in the spring lines at the dock.
          As Tenders said, definitely check the prop.
          I do agree that you could simply be cavitating when reaching hull speed.
          At 2000 RPM, you're pretty close.
          Does the engine run fine up to that rpm?

          If not, the exhaust back pressure Neil cautioned about is an easy one to check. Loss of power is a symptom of that.
          Wouldn't explain the high rev after 2000 rpm's though.
          -Jerry

          'Lone Ranger'
          sigpic
          1978 RANGER 30

          Comment

          • moir
            Frequent Contributor
            • Sep 2011
            • 6

            #6
            Thank you for all the replies! I forgot to properly introduce myself: Paul Moir.

            Mark,

            The choke cable is correctly adjusted and functioning properly. The choke plate had been previously bent at some point by an incorrect adjustment pushing it too far open. After the second carb rebuild (which was a very careful one) I straightened it out and verified it's operation.

            Applying choke didn't seem to help at all. Bumping it (momentarily closing it) produced no effect while applying it continually made the engine slow.

            I am not 100% certain of the fuel supply. It has an electric fuel pump and it ticks away in a normal fashion. I think I'll have to make up a bit of copper line with a pressure gauge in it to check for sure.

            ndutton,

            Would it rev in neutral normally if the exhaust is blocked? I think the mixing tee is hard to access as it's at the top of a very high loop in this boat. But I'll see what I can do. Perhaps I can drill & tap the exhaust pipe for a pressure gauge.

            tenders,

            I'm going to try to get a visual on the prop today. I'll report back.

            roadnsky

            Are you able to follow the link to the videos I posted?

            What happens is I put the engine in gear and it idles fine. I give it a bit of throttle and it the RPMs come up (maybe not as fast as they should) and the thrust comes up (maybe not as much as it should). The engine sounds a bit like it's lugging. If I advance further, the RPMs suddenly shoot up and the thrust drops off. This persists until I drop the throttle way back.

            On an outboard, it would be a spun prop. I guess this has a solid hub so it can't be that. So it's either cavitating or (as I've recently learned) the clutch is slipping. These do have a friction type clutch rather than a mechanical dog arrangement?

            Thanks,
            - Paul

            Comment

            • Mark S
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 421

              #7
              Originally posted by moir View Post
              . . . after about 2000 rpm the engine would suddenly rev up high. . . . You can hear the in gear test suddenly take off and I have to back off.
              Sounds to me like slipping clutches in the reversing gear.

              Mark

              Comment

              • ndutton
                Afourian MVP
                • May 2009
                • 9776

                #8
                Originally posted by moir View Post
                Would it rev in neutral normally if the exhaust is blocked?
                Yeah, that's what I've learned on this forum. Don't ask me why or how, it seems illogical to me too but still, we've seen this before. An exhaust pressure gauge will tell the story.

                If it turns out backpressure is not the issue, that's good information too. We can stop looking in that direction.
                Neil
                1977 Catalina 30
                San Pedro, California
                prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                Had my hands in a few others

                Comment

                • moir
                  Frequent Contributor
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 6

                  #9
                  Well, most of the problem turned out to be barnacles on the prop. When I showed up Joe was all ready to dive into the rather chilly Halifax harbour to take a look. It was quite (~1/2") thick on both sides of both blades! I've never seen them that bad here.

                  After that we had very good thrust and no slipping, so it must have been cavitating.

                  Underway, I went about setting the timing at around 1500 RPM. There was about a 20 degree arc I could turn the distributor without the RPMs being affected, so I set it at about the midpoint between the two.

                  It still doesn't seem perfect though: Joe tells me the engine seems noisier than before his trouble, and to me it still seems like its lugging a bit. I still wonder if the exhaust is a bit restricted.

                  Also, the temperature climbed to 180+ before we backed off and let it cool down a bit. This has a FWC setup, which I guess run a bit hotter. The top of the thermostat housing remained tepid while the block temperature climbed, so I don't think there's anything wrong with the pump. Lots of tepid raw water in the exhaust. I don't know what temperature thermostat is in it.

                  I am a bit suspicious that the temperature gauge may be off so we'll get that verified first. My finger said it was probably not that hot, but it hasn't been calibrated lately either.

                  Spark plugs look perfect and it's idling nicely at 750 RPM without a hint of a miss. Still not sure if the throttle response in neutral is what you would want to see.

                  Comment

                  • Mo
                    Afourian MVP
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 4519

                    #10
                    Paul,
                    Sounds like you are getting a grip on it. I listened to the video and didn't hear anything ominous. If you don't get it sorted you are in my neck of the woods and can give me a call. 483 8524
                    Mo

                    "Odyssey"
                    1976 C&C 30 MKI

                    The pessimist complains about the wind.
                    The optimist expects it to change.
                    The realist adjusts the sails.
                    ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

                    Comment

                    • edwardc
                      Afourian MVP
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 2511

                      #11
                      Originally posted by moir View Post
                      Also, the temperature climbed to 180+ before we backed off and let it cool down a bit. This has a FWC setup, which I guess run a bit hotter.
                      An FWC engine should come up to about 180 under load and stay there.
                      @(^.^)@ Ed
                      1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
                      with rebuilt Atomic-4

                      sigpic

                      Comment

                      • hanleyclifford
                        Afourian MVP
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 6994

                        #12
                        [QUOTE=
                        Underway, I went about setting the timing at around 1500 RPM. There was about a 20 degree arc I could turn the distributor without the RPMs being affected, so I set it at about the midpoint between the two.[/QUOTE]

                        This is not going to get a very good timing setting. At 1500rpm your centrifugal advance would be all the way out. You have no way of knowing how much of your "midpoint" advance is centrifugal or initial. Buy or borrow an automotive type timing light. Idle your engine as low as possible and still keep it running and set at top dead center. Then while holding the light on the mark increase rpm to 1500 and confirm that your advance increases to 17 degrees BTDC. Then you will know your timing is correct beyond any dispute.

                        Comment

                        • moir
                          Frequent Contributor
                          • Sep 2011
                          • 6

                          #13
                          Maurice, thanks for the offer. The boat is over at DYC. Hopefully we'll be able to muddle through it. Are you at SYC? I used to do Wednesdays there a few years back when my brother was a member. After Juan we moved down to DYC.

                          EdwardC: Thank you. We saw it go a little bit above 180 (maybe 190, certainly in tolerance of 180 though) before letting the load off. I'll pass that along.

                          hanleyclifford: I wasn't very happy about it either, but the manual seemed convincing that this was "the way" to set it. I did have a timing light on it and it seemed roughly around 17 degrees fully advanced, but of course there's an absence of timing marks. I would have made my own but I need a suggestion for finding TDC accurately. I have a piston stop tool and a adapter to fit a dial gauge into a spark plug thread, but neither of these will work on an L head. I could make an offset or angled piston stop tool I suppose and try to catch it.
                          Last edited by moir; 09-20-2011, 11:23 AM.

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