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Old 11-21-2010, 10:57 PM
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description/difficulty of FWC install?

Looking down the road, I am sure that the fresh water cooling system conversion is a great idea, and want to get on it as soon as Santa brings me a sack of money.

How difficult is it to add on the MMI FWC kit and are there any descriptions of what the project involves? I haven't found any so far.

Thanks all!

JQ
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:20 AM
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It's not technically difficult for a careful DIYr with decent wrench skills and sound basic understand of engine function. Excellent information is scattered through several threads in the forum archives, and well worth locating with the search tool.

Planning is important. Finding places around the engine for the heat exchanger, reservoir, additional hoses and second pump needs to be considered before purchasing a kit. There are two main choices: MMI's second pump running off the front of the engine, and Indigo's second pump running off the accessory drive. Both kits use the same heat exchanger, I think. The raw water hoses feeding the heat exchanger are a larger ID than the stock A4 cooling hoses feeding the engine block, which might require a different tailpipe on the raw water intake seacock, and a different nipple on the discharge side in the exhaust. Buy good quality hoses. There was a very good thread recently discussing the relative heights of the heat exchanger, engine and reservoir.

Execution is mainly a matter of sound plumbing and wrenching practice.

Feel free to ask questions. There is a lot of talent in this forum, and a lot of ways to do this.

When I was muddling through this, I made the attached image. Buyer beware: I am a one-off amateur DIYr, not an expert.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:21 AM
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You will be drilling a few holes... and may need a hole saw to run hoses to/from the heat exchanger. It's just nuts, bolts, screws, and hose clamps.

Keep in mind that you will need to be able to change the zinc each year and in time, the hoses. You may need to be creative when it comes to running the hoses.

I saved a wasting-away engine by instaling a fresh water system.

J
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:45 AM
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Indigo electric pump system?

It looks like the Indigo FWC system utilizes the existing raw water pump and has a second electric pump for the other one. I expect this could make for a less difficult installation in a crowded engine compartment, as things are REALLY tight at the secondary drive location--flywheel end of engine, right?

Indigo: http://www.atomic4.com/fwcelect.html

I will need to get onboard and really see the spaces in the main and accessory drive areas, as I'm not even sure I have much clearance near the main drive either.

Do I have the big picture here? If the Indigo system uses the existing pump with rerouted hoses and a remotely mounted electric pump, might this be more flexible for an install?
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:54 AM
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I would avoid an electric pump...

I needed to move the front engine compartment cover forward about 1" to have clearance for the drive pulley on the crank.
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:11 AM
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Lightbulb Pump clearance

JQ, there are a few options upot there for pumping the cooling water. Tom H on this site has a really nice electric one, he even gave me pic of the pump but I don't have a digital file to post. Perhaps he will see this and chime in on his set up. It is reall clean especially if you are confined from using the front mount or the less preferable one added to the aux drive. The one on the aux requires a good dael of belt preassure and can be a bit of a problem keeping adjusted on some applications. The front mount is nice if you have the space.

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Old 11-22-2010, 10:25 AM
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Lightbulb

JQ,

I have a Catalina 30, which pretty much eliminates the extra pump on the flywheel option from Moyer without extensive cabinet modifications....my boat has about 3/4" clearance in front of the center of the flywheel. I also have an old accessory drive and don't really want to put another pump on top of that with all the belt tension required to circulate the fresh water.

I had pretty much given up on FWC until I came across Indigo's electric pump idea & I really like it.

To answer Jeff's concerns, Tom has also engineered a redundant pump system..he is selling the system with a 2nd pump cheaper than I can even find the pumps by themselves, so if you were concerned about failure of an electric pump, get two...the MTBF is 1,000 hours on those pumps.

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Old 11-22-2010, 07:14 PM
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I installed the Moyer kit two years ago and am very happy with it.
I'd say the most difficult part of the job was locating the heat exchanger. You have to be able to run 4 hoses to it, plus have access to the fill cap and the zinc. And it helps if it's sorta vertical.
I had no problem with the pump on the front of the engine. Engine turns, pump turns, no worries about electric. I started school as an EE, changed to Mechanical. Never could remember that ditty for power - it was either 'Twinkle, twinkle, little star, power equal i squared r" or "Birdie, birdie, in the sky, power equals r squared i".
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:36 PM
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If a small modification can be made to the engine cover, I think the outcome will be more dependable.

Think of it this way, what performs better on most boats, neglected impellers or neglected electrical devices?

Joe
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:40 PM
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Converting to FWC is a major modification and could require relocation of components in the engine room. Two big issues to start with - how to add an additional fluid pump is first; mechanical or electrical, accessory drive or PTO from the front of the crank (mechanical), or bulkhead or thru hull (electrical). I do not like making the alternator share a belt with a pump. The exchanger is a big problem. Vertical mounting in most boats is challenging. Both the Moyer and Indigo units have the "header tank" built in which must be close to vertical. It is also possible to lay a Sendure exchanger horizontal and do a separate header tank, the higher in the boat the better. If you post some pictures of your engine room we could probably suggest something specific.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:56 PM
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Here are some photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Converting to FWC is a major modification and could require relocation of components in the engine room. Two big issues to start with - how to add an additional fluid pump is first; mechanical or electrical, accessory drive or PTO from the front of the crank (mechanical), or bulkhead or thru hull (electrical). I do not like making the alternator share a belt with a pump. The exchanger is a big problem. Vertical mounting in most boats is challenging. Both the Moyer and Indigo units have the "header tank" built in which must be close to vertical. It is also possible to lay a Sendure exchanger horizontal and do a separate header tank, the higher in the boat the better. If you post some pictures of your engine room we could probably suggest something specific.
I may get back tomorrow and take better pictures to show the available clearance in the engine compartment, but these show some of my equipment at least. Some show the clearance I have to the side wall and ceiling, the flywheel clearance, etc.

Better pics tomorrow, thanks!
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:10 PM
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Water Lift Muffler leak?

It appears to be the source of the pooling water in my engine compartment--I previously thought it was the packing gland, but this water accumulates over time after sailing, not while running the engine/prop shaft. One photo shows a drip from my packing gland/stuffing box, but that is reduced now to a mere occasional drip, yet water still accumulates--I expect its the water lift muffler.

Here are some photos, do ya'll concur on this as the water source? and not knowing the exhaust system, is this a job with the boat in or out of the water?

If it can only be done out of the water, does this look like yet another job for JB Weld? or some other product?

Thanks again, the boat and I thank you all.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:36 PM
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Your stainless muffler looks very much like mine when I bought my boat. I immediately replaced it with a fiberglass Centek and it has been trouble free ever since. Moyer offers a stainless replacement too.

The replacement can be safely done in the water, there are no special considerations. Might want to scrutinize the hot section at the same time.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:44 PM
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JQ - The bulkhead in front of the engine appears to preclude the crank mounted pump unless you are able to modify it. The rather large alternator isn't going to be happy sharing a belt. You may be a good candidate for an electric pump, either bulkhead or thru hull mounted. The good news is that you appear to have a space for a vertical exchanger. Let's see a few more pictures. Attached is picture of my salt water pump. Hanley

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Your stainless muffler looks very much like mine when I bought my boat. I immediately replaced it with a fiberglass Centek and it has been trouble free ever since. Moyer offers a stainless replacement too.

The replacement can be safely done in the water, there are no special considerations. Might want to scrutinize the hot section at the same time.
I just emailed Centek for assistance in selecting the right replacement, thanks for that suggestion.

Your last comment-- what are you referring to when you said to scrutinize the hot section at the same time? Are you referring to the condition of the piping, unions, etc. coming from the engine-- the portion covered by the asbestos wrapping, correct?
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
JQ - The bulkhead in front of the engine appears to preclude the crank mounted pump unless you are able to modify it. The rather large alternator isn't going to be happy sharing a belt. You may be a good candidate for an electric pump, either bulkhead or thru hull mounted. The good news is that you appear to have a space for a vertical exchanger. Let's see a few more pictures. Attached is picture of my salt water pump. Hanley
Ahh! I hadn't thought of a thru-hull mounted pump, neat idea. I'll get some more photos tomorrow, thanks again!
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyQuest View Post
Your last comment-- what are you referring to when you said to scrutinize the hot section at the same time? Are you referring to the condition of the piping, unions, etc. coming from the engine-- the portion covered by the asbestos wrapping, correct?
Yup, that's the one. There's a good chance it's constructed of black iron and therefore deteriorates over time. The wrap masks problems. I thought as long as you were messing around in the area it would be a convenient time to check things out. At a minimum you could replace what you say is asbestos wrap with a newer, safer product.

Plenty of threads on the forum regarding hot sections, their design and construction.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Attached is picture of my salt water pump.
Hanley,
What sort of power-on / engine-run control do you have for that pump?
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:49 AM
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Neil - The salt water pump is wired to the ignition circuit which is on an oil pressure switch.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:56 AM
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Figured it was something like that. Is the oil pressure switch ahead of the ignition or after it? I'm guessing after.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:04 AM
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Neil - I don't have a traditional ignition switch. A hot bat handle switch energizes a (7-9psi) oil pressure switch. Coil, fuel pump, salt water pump and instruments all come on together. The alternator sense has it's own dedicated oil presure switch.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:10 AM
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So you need to crank the starter long enough to build up oil pressure before the systems kick in, correct?
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:24 AM
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Neil - That is correct; I do not want my engine to fire until minimal oil pressure is reached.
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:26 AM
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Hanley,

I'm fascinated with your thru-hull mounted pump and have more questions.

As I recall, you have a waterlift exhaust system, my question does not apply to a standpipe. One of the charms of the conventional engine driven impeller pump is it pumps an amount of water proportionate to the engine RPM and accordingly the exhaust has to lift an amount of water proportionate to exhaust volume and pressure.

So, my question is: with your electric raw water pump operating at full volume at all times, even at idle, have you ever experienced an issue or had a concern with the exhaust's ability to handle the flow?

I seem to remember Thatch's electric pump FWC system design used the electric pump (not thru-hull mounted) to circulate the FW side of the system partly for this reason.

Other questions:

Is there a debris problem in your area? Here in SoCal we deal with kelp. There are floating kelp patties (fish hotels) all over the place, even mid channel to Catalina. I've reverted to a non-strainer thru-hull and a raw water strainer to deal with it. If the thru-hull gets clogged I can pull the hose and rod it out. Otherwise, I count on the strainer to handle anything that's sucked up. Have you had any thru-hull/pump clogging issues and if so, how did you resolve it?

Do you have a raw water strainer? My understanding is the seals on raw water strainers are designed for negative pressure whereas a strainer in an application such as yours would be in a positive pressure situation. Maybe the pressure is so small that it's not a problem.

As you can tell, I'm interested in your experience. Right now I'm flushing my RWC engine after each use but I'd like to add FWC someday. The Catalina 30, for reasons mentioned previously, has some real space problems when it comes to FWC so these electric pump installations, like yours and Thatch's, get my attention.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-24-2010 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:55 AM
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Exclamation sidebar!!

JQ,

I think you need a safety wire on that square locking nut on the shaft coupler. If that ever backed out, the shaft could slide out of the boat in reverse.

Don't forget to wear a mask when you unwrap that stuff since we don't know what it is.
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