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  #26   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-19-2014, 01:03 PM
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Jason, he was joking.

I had tried a pull cord on my engine. It actually worked. I use the PTO on the fly wheel to run my alternator. I spaced a round plate against the pulley and used a rope. not that you can do that, since you cant get access to the flywheel.

Any news about the starter?
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  #27   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-19-2014, 01:31 PM
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Jason, have you talked to MMI. I know in the past Don has bent over backwards to help guys in trouble.

they may even know about shipping to the Bahamas.
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  #28   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-19-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Jason, he was joking.

I had tried a pull cord on my engine. It actually worked. I use the PTO on the fly wheel to run my alternator. I spaced a round plate against the pulley and used a rope. not that you can do that, since you cant get access to the flywheel.

Any news about the starter?
Nope. I am serious. I don't think it's relevant to jason's situation though. Sorry for the confusion Jason. I just was wondering what it would take to make a dependable hand starter for an a-4 when I thought of repurposing a recoil from another engine.

Back to your problem though. I, Like RC, think it may be smart money to get a Moyer starter sent out ASAP and turn in your core later. The shipping would be the same most likely, and the PIA factor could be much less. Then you can pend some quality time on the beach to realign cruising priorities.

Edit:
I just read your plea on the other thread. That explains the issue with wanting a used starter. Hope you can find one.

Russ
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  #29   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-19-2014, 04:57 PM
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Sorry Russ. I think it is very possible to have a rope start for the Atomic Four.

I matched the small pulley I have on the PTO. I took it off for some reason. I will look for a picture. But it wont help Jason right now.
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  #30   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-20-2014, 12:26 PM
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RC,
All good. I actually was very inspired by your comment that you had established proof-of-concept with a plate of some kind and a rope.
I have even imagined a version of this with a recoil on engines with poor or no access to the flywheel end as in Jason's v-drive case.

Just like a snowmobile starter is rigged, you could lead the rope up through the deck to the cockpit or dinning table top. A rope recoil is much safer than a crank and if it was lead all the way to the helm, one could safely sail the boat while dealing with a dead battery or stalling engine. "one" could also have a heart attack if it went on for long. I'm good for about five pulls and then it's miller time.
Thanks also for giving Jason the Moyer part number on the other thread.

Russ
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:04 PM
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I wonder if anyone has actually started a 4 cylnder engine witha rope pull. The mechanical advantage is lame compared to the hand crank. If I were developing such a thing I'd include compresson relief valves on all 4 cylinders.
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  #32   IP: 204.236.87.4
Old 03-20-2014, 01:35 PM
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Going the rebild route...

So the specialist and I took everything apart and the armiture and coils are fukackta. We are going the rebuild route. We found a place in ohio that can ship us new coils and an armiture for $150 with shipping. Not bad.

Something I discovered through all of this. The part number of my starter: MZ4153 came out of the factory as a 6v starter. Now it may have been rebuilt as a 12v at some point in the last 50 years but since the armiture is the same and my coils look like einsteins hair, we cant tell.

The 12v version is MBG 4129. The only difference being the brushes and field coils. The engine start(ed) smooth and he said the I could have potentially run a 6v starter on a 12v system for a long time (but with failure always looking). Who knows.

Money spent. Knowledge gained. Now... Given all this talk of hand cranking, I am trying to conceive of the best way to do this (for my own future safety). I can get to the back in a pinch if necesary. How would I turn the engine off if cranked by hand? Starve the fuel?

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  #33   IP: 204.236.87.4
Old 03-20-2014, 01:51 PM
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Also, anyone got a photo of a jury rigged socket? just want to see the grooves.

Thanks, J
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  #34   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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Jason,
The key switch will turn off the ignition. Engine stops. The starter motor circuit can be thought of separately. First you energize the ignition with the key switch, then crank it over with the starter or any other way to crank it.
When a stick-shift car loses the starter, sometimes the cranking can be done by pushing the car in gear to turn the engine over. This is the concept of emergency or hand starting we are toying with.

There are some 'tube vids somewhere that show a few a-4s being started like this with a hand crank.
You have the disadvantage of the v-drive, so engineering this emergency starter is problematic.

I hope we are not confusing the current repair goat rope you have with our pie-in-the-sky ideas. I often get sidetracked.

Hanley,
I have a '56 30-hp Evinrude twin out back that is a beast to pull on. I have never started it . I wonder if that's why it still is in such good shape? Maybe no one else could either.

Next up:
a kick starter!

R
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
Jason,
The key switch will turn off the ignition. Engine stops. The starter motor circuit can be thought of separately. First you energize the ignition with the key switch, then crank it over with the starter or any other way to crank it.
When a stick-shift car loses the starter, sometimes the cranking can be done by pushing the car in gear to turn the engine over. This is the concept of emergency or hand starting we are toying with.

There are some 'tube vids somewhere that show a few a-4s being started like this with a hand crank.
You have the disadvantage of the v-drive, so engineering this emergency starter is problematic.

I hope we are not confusing the current repair goat rope you have with our pie-in-the-sky ideas. I often get sidetracked.

Hanley,
I have a '56 30-hp Evinrude twin out back that is a beast to pull on. I have never started it . I wonder if that's why it still is in such good shape? Maybe no one else could either.

Next up:
a kick starter!

R
Not confused about that. I can tell things are getting a bit C3PO. That said, I can get access to it (with some difficulty) so I am thinking about HOW to do this for the future in a pinch. Would a pull cord system work off of some blocks/pulleys? Doubtful, but I am going to explore it. After watching the video, it didnt seem like it took much to crank it over. 1/2 a revolution.

In the meantime, I want to see what the open socket part looks like so I can make one and at least move my boat. lol
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  #36   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-20-2014, 02:29 PM
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Okay, Just wanted to make sure you got good info.
Have to be a taxi for teenagers now. I'm off to races. literally:
http://www.arcticwintergames.org


Good luck,

Russ
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  #37   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-20-2014, 03:20 PM
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Russ, have you ever started a larger outboard by rope. We raced mercury 4 cylinders that we hand started. Called the 4-40, or 40-4. That was 4 cylinder, 40 cubic inches.

There was a racing engine called an ELTO 4 -60. 4 cylinder, 60 cubic inches. Long time ago, they were made. You can start them by hand too.

I have a 1969 Johnson 40 hp 2 cylinder that starts with the simplex like you showed on the Atomic Four.

I started my Atomic Four by rope. Only did it for fun, then removed the plate, for some reason. I can get right to my engine, in the middle of the cabin. It is a direct pull at the flywheel.

Jason, in your case, I think you would need to turn the pull direction. That might make it too hard to do by hand.

Jason, we used to use 6 volt starters on VWs that were converted to 12 volts. They worked great. The secret was to not crank for extended periods.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:35 PM
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hand crank

Our sponsor sells hand crank. I bought it for emergency starting but have never had the pleasure of trying. (get nervous when people talk about broken thumbs in the model T days).

Apparently it is designed to release when the beast fires up. I have used it many times to turn the cylinders when winterizing etc so i dont regret the $50+

A better view is in the online catalog (misc parts) --

BTW, glad you are safe. I was nervous as a cat following your saga.

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Old 03-20-2014, 08:05 PM
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A spark plug socket can be easily modified to start an Atomic 4. This is the general idea. The Bahamians are good at making do.
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:14 PM
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Please remember guys, this is a V drive. No flywheel access for hand starting.
Reference: post #7
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingchance View Post
Not confused about that. I can tell things are getting a bit C3PO. That said, I can get access to it (with some difficulty) so I am thinking about HOW to do this for the future in a pinch. Would a pull cord system work off of some blocks/pulleys? Doubtful, but I am going to explore it. After watching the video, it didnt seem like it took much to crank it over. 1/2 a revolution.

In the meantime, I want to see what the open socket part looks like so I can make one and at least move my boat. lol
The Atomic is angled up on 10 degrees, giving room for cranking. If there is a bulkhead there, put a hole through it for a shaft to the modified spark plug socket.
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:40 AM
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With reverse drive, could you mount PTO pulley that stays there permanently and then just wrap a cord around it when necessary to pull start?
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:09 AM
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right angle cordless?

just wondering (and unfortunately it doesn't apply to Jason's v drive).
some folks use a cordless Milwaukee drill fitted with a hex (otherwise known as a winch mate) to grind away.
anyone know if this would have a enough torque to spin an A4?
danger aspect aside, the socket part seems easy enough
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:50 AM
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I don't know about a cordless drill. My dewalt is rated at 450 in-lbs (38 ft lbs) of torque and I have used it to turn over a few outboards with starting issues. On the other hand, a cordless impact wrench would do the job and then some. It would also be handy for stuck fasteners
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:21 PM
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Awesome drawing. I will try to make that tonight. I have all the starter parts ordered so I have 10 days to sit an play while in SPanish wells. I am in "outboard city" So I am actually going to try and see if I can make a pull start work.

I do have room to hand crank, kinda, sorta, barely, as a circus midget.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:40 PM
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There are two dangers to hand cranking:
1. The engine fires/backfires the wrong way. IIRC, the Model T and A have hand adjustable spark advance and starting in advanced mode could cause this.

2. The hand crank you are using is not designed to be pushed free when the engine starts. This is the reason for the angled slots cut in the starting handle and the drawing of a socket.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
The hand crank you are using is not designed to be pushed free when the engine starts
This is really worth doing right. I will post pictures of my Universal hand crank in my next post. It looks a little different than the Moyer crank because the Moyer crank is better made. Yes, I have two--got one in an engine parts deal so I keep one on the boat and one at home for the spare motor. The angled part allows the pin on the crankshaft to kick the crank handle out. The straight part grips the pin to turn the motor.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:19 PM
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Here are the picts:

The first shows the crank and the grip I use (as taught by the old timers). Except I am gripping the crank to turn it backwards LOL. The second is close up of the slot in the crank.
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  #49   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-21-2014, 06:27 PM
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I really advise against the hand crank thing unless you know exactly what you are doing, have the right instrument, and have good clean access including a straight escape path form your thumb and arm. The cost of carrying a ready spare starter pales in comparison to the deductible/copay on a broken arm or worse.
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:12 PM
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So...Jason, a few posts back, you asked how to kill the engine if you hand cranked it...remember, it won't run if the key is not in the "run" position..(unless you have a separate switch as some do).

The point is, if you really want to hand crank it...set the key to "on", and spin the flywheel...to turn off the engine, you turn the key to off/disable the ignition as normal...this is not a diesel..no fuel starvation needed. The hand crank simulates the "start" position on a key, or a momentary button to engage the starter.
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