need expert advice with A4 install/drive shaft coupling and alignment issues

[DanManSanDiego]

Greetings Afourinans,
Needing some expert wisdom and advice from some of you who may have encountered this problem--or were smart enough not to! First off, let me confess to being a real newbie and probably in way over my head at this point.

My co-owner Tom and I have purchased a good running A4 late model from a post on this forum. We've removed the old dead A4 (early model) from our 1972 vintage Catalina 27 and wrestled our "new" A4 into place (hereafter just called new motor)--and here is where we're facing problems. I'm posting a couple pictures to show the issue. Note that the pictures show the engine on a big slant--which it still is-being slid into place on a couple wood blocks. It will line up much better--but it will be longer than previous motor.

Basically, we are sliding the new motor into place and need to move it back another inch to mate up with the mounting bolts--and we're jammed up to the shaft coupler already. Our assumption had been that the new A4 would match up exactly where our previous engine had been--and that's not a good assumption. We need to move the engine back about an inch to mount it and we're already jammed right to the coupler on the propeller shaft.

I realize that when we are talking about the coupler and propeller shaft that we're entering into the domain of the Catalina 27--but i can see from the knowledgable posts here that many of you know this subject inside and out--and we're definitely needing expert advice. So here are my questions (and where I'll also display my ignorance):

1. Is there any length adjustment available in the coupling setup?
2. Can we make a small length adjustment by pulling the prop out in the water a small amount? If so, does this create additional problems (like maybe sinking our boat?
3. If we cannot adjust the shaft out, can we mount the engine without using the existing mounting bolts? Currently, the mounting holes in the A4 oil pan are not over anything but air and we'd have to construct a support for mounting.
4. What service do we need to perform for the coupling and stuffing box? We'll definitely need some PB blaster and a wire brush to get access to anything there.
5. Can we do what needs to be done ourselves, or do we need some expert help with this? And if so, who is our best source for information on addressing this--without a haulout or other too-expensive options for us?

Any and all comments and suggestions are appreciated--even if it's to point out something we shoulda and coulda thought of or done but didn't! we'll follow this forum but would also welcome any private advice or suggestions or possibly a local in our Oceanside, CA harbor area (really, anywhere in SD or Orange County). Feel free to call Dan at 760-208-4717 or danmanakers@gmail.com.

[ndutton]

Dan, sumthin' not right. There is no variation in engine length or mounting holes in A-4's. Can you provide a picture of the mounts in their current position? Any pictures available of the old engine and its mounts for comparison?

My next comment takes into account you admit to being a newbie and is not intended to beat you up or insult but the coupler, shaft and stuffing box are a fright. Please say there are plans to replace these components in the very near future.

Finally in the third picture it appears the clamps have been loosened and/or relocated or perhaps double clamping has been removed. Any failure of those connections left unattended will surely sink the boat. Please be sure those clamps are secure and the double clamps are replaced.

[DanManSanDiego]

thanks Neil. Can the coupling and stuffing box be replaced with our boat in the water? Do we have any room to adjust the coupling aft during this process? I'll try to get a picture of the mounting setup previous and current.

[edwardc]

Was your old engine directly lag-bolted to the stringers, or did it use engine mounts like this:

[ndutton]

thanks Neil. Can the coupling and stuffing box be replaced with our boat in the water? Do we have any room to adjust the coupling aft during this process? I'll try to get a picture of the mounting setup previous and current.

Replacement of coupler and stuffing box (and the hose that connects it) as well as the shaft is not something I'd consider doing in the water. Expediency will dictate cutting the shaft as I'm certain the coupler will be uncooperative. I did not mean to ignore your question of moving the existing shaft/coupler aft to gain room, sorry. I suggest for the current project it should not be necessary although the pictures imply otherwise. I also think with the condition of the shaft, moving it aft will result in a leak at the stuffing box seal. For that seal to perform well the shaft must be smooth.

If the old engine fit the replacement will too without changing anything. Really, they're identical. As I was thinking and Ed has mentioned, the new mount system is suspect.

[hanleyclifford]

Looks like you need to shove that shaft aft and you do have about an inch. Could be stubborn. Loosen the locking nut behind the packing nut and see if you can loosen it up enough. You may have to apply liberal amounts of light oil and WD 40.

[Al Schober]

Dan,
The stuffing box and coupling are really ugly. Without cleaning them up, you really don't know what you have. Shaft might be fine, and moving it aft an inch shouldn't be a biggie. Did the same with my shaft when I installed an isolator coupling and didn't have any problems. Gave me room for a zinc between the hull and the propeller.
Not really sure why you're having this space problem. For a while I thought you were replacing a different engine with an A4. All A4 engines that I've seen have the same footprint.
Oh yeah, make your pictures smaller.

[romantic comedy]

It is possible to change a coupling and stuffing box in the water. You need to be careful not to push the shaft out the bottom. If that happens, you have a big hole that needs to be plugged. Then you need to be hauled.

You have so little clearance, and are a newbie. I advise against it. If you really want to try it, be near the travel lift, with the operator on notice.

[DanManSanDiego]

Thanks, all for the helpful advice so far. Let me try to summarize a few answers--and give a bit more information. Re the engine mounting and Ed's question, the engine has mounted directly into the support structure (stringers?) with no added hardware. How would that hardware function anyway? Also, we have only the two mounting bolts on the flywheel side of the engine. The other two on the drive end were previously sheared off and the previous early model A4 was only mounted with the two bolts--and attached securely to coupler and drive. I will attempt to get some pictures and measurements. Oh, and sorry about the oversize pictures--that's just how they came from the phone--will do some post processing next go round.

Re. the coupler and stuffing box. Clearly we have to get that cleaned up, assess the condition and do whatever needs to be done. I'll confess to not even knowing what a stuffing box was before this occasion. I believe we need to be careful with using PB blaster or equivalent in the area. After reading some of the advice and how-to's here, it's clearly not something to overlook or take lightly. We did have to reposition the hose and clamps to deal with a fairly significant inflow of water after removing the old engine. Obviously we need to address this with caution and perhaps the direct oversight of a seasoned hand at this. Messing with this will certainly bring on some water that we need to be prepared for and ready to deal with. What would be the best solution to cleaning and freeing up our bolts at the stuffing box area?

One suggestion made is that perhaps we have inadvertently moved the shaft and coupling location forward in our removal process. Perhaps we can dive overboard and gently pull and rotate prop and pull out a bit to provide clearance? Again, want to ensure that we don't do anything to precipitate a major flood.
I am believing that the shaft is normally bathed in water from the propeller forward to the stuffing box, and that some water leakage (measured in drips not gushes) is normal and even desirable--is that right?

Again, thanks for the wise advice.

[Al Schober]

I say that's correct - you can push the shaft aft a bit and not sink the ship. Is the prop going to hit something if you push it aft? Not likely in a Cat 27. Not like you were in an aperture.
You scare me telling me the old (and new?) engine are only held by two bolts. I've been in off shore knockdowns where engine covers have come loose, batterys have come loose, but never a whole engine. Please (!!!) fix the hold down situation. You'll need a couple of new hanger studs - and probably some epoxy to bed them (engine beds OK or punky?).

[ndutton]

The other two on the drive end were previously sheared off and the previous early model A4 was only mounted with the two bolts--and attached securely to coupler and drive.

I'd like to know under what circumstances you had an early model engine in a Catalina 27. My information is early model A-4 production ceased in 1969, Catalina 27 production began in 1971, yours is a year newer.

[roadnsky]

...I am believing that the shaft is normally bathed in water from the propeller forward to the stuffing box, and that some water leakage (measured in drips not gushes) is normal and even desirable--is that right?

Correct.
You may want to read these "how to" links regarding a traditional stuffing box and cutlass bearing...

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/motor_mounts

[DanManSanDiego]

Great stuff, thanks. Hopefully, we won't need to replace the cutlass bearing until a future haulout, but we'll certainly need to service the stuffing box, and likely install two new engine mounts--if we actually have a structure there to install into that will line up with the A4 oil pan mounts.

[DanManSanDiego]

Neil, we did not know it was an early model until we saw the late model we had purchased. Previous motor did not have thermostat bulge in head and was definitely not the late model. My co-owner and I only have the last several years history. No idea what happened in the intervening years of our boats checkered past. A previous owner clearly replaced an engine. That unknown owner also cut out sections in the side of the engine compartment so you can actually reach in from the side to access things. That Catalina 27 engine compartment is not too spacious to say the least.

[DanManSanDiego]

I say that's correct - you can push the shaft aft a bit and not sink the ship. Is the prop going to hit something if you push it aft? Not likely in a Cat 27. Not like you were in an aperture.
You scare me telling me the old (and new?) engine are only held by two bolts. I've been in off shore knockdowns where engine covers have come loose, batterys have come loose, but never a whole engine. Please (!!!) fix the hold down situation. You'll need a couple of new hanger studs - and probably some epoxy to bed them (engine beds OK or punky?).

Al, we're going to look at replacing those engine mounts if we have something to mount to where our mounting holes have to be. Previous engine was mounted very securely, but I get worried too thinking about really heavy seas if we don't have everything very secure--though mainly sailing off the coast and maybe to Catalina is the height of our ambitions with our little boat. Gonna watch the weather real close!