Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Owner Discussion Groups > Discussion Groups > Tartan

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-25-2013, 04:31 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Rear shaft oil seal replacement

New to this business of "posting threads" so. Used to just call Don and ask my questions.

I have been reading the posts re. direct drive problems and have a couple of my own. One may have already been answered by these posts - slippage in forward without ability to adjust it out. Possibly a shaft/key problem. When I go after issue 2 I will be able to determine that.

Issue 2 is that my rear seal is throwing oil badly. Question; when I remove the rear bearing housing to replace the seal (and possibly the bearing), can I then remove the direct drive shaft?

I have all of Don's Newsletters and his selected letters making up his 'overhaul manual' and they indicate that I must remove the three fingers of the pressure plate. What about the cross shaft and yoke??

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and help.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 68.4.186.79
Old 10-25-2013, 04:50 PM
yeahjohn's Avatar
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Dana Point, Ca
Posts: 254
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I'll try to help as best as possible. You will need to pull your reversing gear completely out to remove the tail shaft. That means removing the entire rear housing. The hardest part of the job is pressing the cupling on after taking it off. It seems you are going down the right path, just plan on removing the entire rear housing and pulling the reversing gear to inspect it and fix as needed. I think we must be getting to a critical time in the reversing gear life cycle. I have seen tons of these post as of late.
__________________
1980 Catalina 30 - Atomic 4
"Pure Pleasure"
Dana Point Yacht Club
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-26-2013, 11:38 AM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Thanks muchly for the info. Perhaps you are correct in that some of thexe parts are nearing their end-of- (useful)life. Looks like a major project but with a Tartan 30 the engine is mid-ship making accessibility not so much a problem. And if what you suggest is what I must do, I will.

However, should I just conclude that the complete housing needs to be removed, or should, and can, I remove just the rear coupling and bearing plate to examine the tail end of the shaft first?? That way if the shaft/keyway/key are OK I can replace the oil seal then go on to look for the slipping issue.

The slipping has been going on for several years but getting worse. Let me describe it: Reverse always behaves in a normal way. Going forward it is necessary to idle the engine down as low as possible then slowly bring the rpm back up. Sometimes it catches on the first or second try - other times it requires several tries. Once engaged it doesn't slip even under high power in rough seas. The adjustment ring (screw collar) is within one notch of being so tight it cannot get into the détente.

I have always assumed that it was the clutch plates causing the slippage but reading these posts about damaged Woodworth keys and broken tail shafts makes me wonder. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 10-26-2013, 08:06 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 176 Times in 148 Posts
Question

Most likely it is the clutch plates. If the key or shaft were bad you'd have no forward. A question has been raised on the Forum about certain oils contributing to slippage; can you say what type of oil you are using?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
Greg Kingman (01-29-2021)
  #5   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-27-2013, 12:27 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Yes, I have always thought it to be the clutch plates. I have been using 10W-30 detergent oil with the addition of one cup of Marvel Mystery oil.

Reading Don's newsletters - overhaul sections- I am concerned about removing the reversing gear housing because the engine will remain on its' mounts and I will not be able to replace the oil pan gaskets if they become damaged. Is it possible to remove the reversing gear, with the housing still attached to the block, by removing the cross shaft and taking it out the top opening or the end opening?
Thanks for you help.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 173.166.26.242
Old 10-27-2013, 12:45 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 176 Times in 148 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gari View Post
Yes, I have always thought it to be the clutch plates. I have been using 10W-30 detergent oil with the addition of one cup of Marvel Mystery oil.

Reading Don's newsletters - overhaul sections- I am concerned about removing the reversing gear housing because the engine will remain on its' mounts and I will not be able to replace the oil pan gaskets if they become damaged. Is it possible to remove the reversing gear, with the housing still attached to the block, by removing the cross shaft and taking it out the top opening or the end opening?
Thanks for you help.
That is not possible; however, you should not worry about the oil pan gasket. You can cut it with a single edge razor blade and butt in an aft section. The problem will be replacing the plates. I don't believe they are available from Moyer Marine. I have a couple of sets (used) that I believe to be good if it comes to that. There may be a source for new ones but I don't know it. If you have reached the point where you cannot adjust the pack it is a good idea to take the thing apart for a look-see and post us some pix.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-28-2013, 01:45 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Thank you Hanleyclifford and Yeahjohn. Sooo, I guess I have a major on my hands. Boston offers to be relatively warm this week so I will try to get the disassembly done at that time. Once home and parts cleaned, I will try to determine cause of slippage - as you suggest, I I will post photos. Do you know what the thickness specifications are for the clutch plates?. (Perhaps if I can see light through them, they are too thin?)

As you suggest, I will post some photos when I get it apart.

Regarding reassembly, Don calls for driving wedges between a loosened oil pan and the rear of the block. I will not be able to do that and wonder how much more difficult it will make life. I really don't want to remove the entire engine to loosen the pan bolts. G------------
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 173.166.26.242
Old 10-28-2013, 01:54 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 176 Times in 148 Posts
Talking

You might not have to wedge the block; but even if you do it still is not necessary to pull the engine. Cross that bridge when you get to it. Meanwhile one important step is to drive out the tapered pins connecting the block with that housing. Do that before removing the bolts and it will be easier.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 10-28-2013, 05:21 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,816
Thanks: 11
Thanked 410 Times in 303 Posts
Gari,
First, congratulations on your choice of a Tartan 30. A smart choice - if only for easy access to the engine.
Removal of the transmission housing and gear cluster is not a big deal. No need to separate the block from the pan. Disconnect all the links, and you can even remove the housing BEFORE the cluster. Otherwise you can remove them together and then figure out what else you should have disconnected.
I find it hard to believe that you can't eliminate slippage by adjusting the wheel. I've had my boat for 25 years, and MAY have adjusted the wheel one tooth in that time. Suggest you look for something else..
Disconnect the shift cable from the transmission and try shifting by hand using the lever on the transmission. Easy diagnostic tool. Still have the problem - probably transmission. No? Look at the cable and it's attachments. I had shifting problems with my T30, and traced them to the mounting for the engine end of the shift cable jacket - it had come loose from the hull. Fixed it, problem went away.
I'm a believer in a) identify the problem, b) fix the problem. Part a is often more difficult than part b. But, I save a lot on parts and labor (mine).
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-28-2013, 05:21 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Thanks. I will try to find the pins. I cannot find them on Dons' picture but as I get started, I am sure they will become obvious.

Can they be driven out from the front toward the rear of the housing?

Don did suggest leaving the pins out when reassembling - until the housing is lined up and in place. Is that what you were referring to?

Thanks again for the help, all. I am becoming quite knowledgeable before I even get my hands dirty. I overhauled this engine in my basement in 1997 - and it was slipping just a bit then. Wish I had done something about it then. Also, I should remember where those pins are. G------------------
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 10-28-2013, 05:33 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,816
Thanks: 11
Thanked 410 Times in 303 Posts
Gari,
Looking at my 'basement' engine...
One pin is on the mainifold side, counting up it's just above bolt #2 - I think it needs to be driven out towards the transmission. Another is on the water pump side, just below bolt #2. Again, I think it drives out towards the transmission - you'll have to remove the accessory drive for access to the flywheel end of the pin.
Again, do the diagnosis, then disassemble.
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 98.189.172.157
Old 10-28-2013, 06:18 PM
yeahjohn's Avatar
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Dana Point, Ca
Posts: 254
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Sorry I was on vacation last week and had no internet!!!! (Yikes). Replace the entire reversing gear assembly. Keep your old one for parts. That would be my recommendation. I don't think the oil pan gasket is a big deal. It is just for splashing oil, I just puzzled mine back together and put a little permatex #2 on the underside to keep the gasket together. Also you may want to order new bearing while you are at it, get all of the parts and pieces you may need to replace next year and do it while you have it open. I did not do this and now have a new reversing gear issue. Ugh.
__________________
1980 Catalina 30 - Atomic 4
"Pure Pleasure"
Dana Point Yacht Club
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 10-29-2013, 12:40 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Thanks Al. Do you know what size drift-punch I will need to drive the pins out? And Yeahjohn, you are probably right about replacement. Don sells a rebuilt for $400 which I will probably go with. But first, diagnose, then examine the parts, then make informed decisions. Thanks again, all, for your help. G-----------------
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 10-29-2013, 10:28 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,816
Thanks: 11
Thanked 410 Times in 303 Posts
Gari,
The pins are about 1/4" at the big end - a 3/16" drift should work fine.
You should be able to remove the housing without removing the pins. Easier to reinstall the housing with the pins out of the way (don't scuff up the gasket).
Oh yeah, don't go cheap and try to just fit a NAPA gasket - you'll never get the thicknesses to match. Buy the Moyer oil pan gasket and just cut off the part for the transmission. Cut it long the first time, then trim it to get the bolt holes to line up. A bit of brown Permatex (in the tube, not the bottle stuff) will fill any gaps. As someone said, it's only splash - no pressure.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 11-01-2013, 05:21 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Breaking loose the housing

Well, spent the day trying to get the housing off. Next to impossible without a "bigger hammer". All bolts removed, aft coupling removed, rear oil seal and bearing plate removed, water pump removed - nothing left to removed except the housing itself. It is really stuck

I was able to get a screwdriver blade to cause a separation of 1/16 to 1/8 inch on the water pump side but cannot budge the fuel pump side. I attached a 5 pound slide hammer to the housing and have been slamming it for over an hour - no results. What is going on??.Gari----------------
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 173.166.26.242
Old 11-01-2013, 08:29 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 176 Times in 148 Posts
Question

Have you driven out the tapered pins?
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 173.166.26.242
Old 11-01-2013, 08:47 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 176 Times in 148 Posts
Question

Have you removed the accessory drive?
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 11-02-2013, 05:38 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Smile Housing off!

Thanks again Hanleyclifford and the rest of you folks. I got the housing off today thanks to your knowledge and persistent questions and suggestions.

Yes and no about the accessory drive. I had unbolted it but not removed it. Once I did, I saw the pin on that side of the engine and with a quick blow or two it was out - glory be! The screwdriver wedge did the rest, pronto. I am glad that I did not have to drive out the other pin as I would have had to remove the mechanical fuel pump - just one more thing to put back in.

Parts are now all home being cleaned up for inspection and evaluation. I have asked Don, but do any of you know if there are dimensional specs for the clutch plates?

Once again, thank you - how wonderful it is to have such a place to share information and knowledge. Gari------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 98.110.153.146
Old 11-07-2013, 02:59 PM
Gari Gari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Acton, MA
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Gari
Thumbs down No answer yet

The last remaining question about whether or not the forward idler bearing had be in place has been answered - yes it was. I also confirmed that the propeller is and has been secure on the prop shaft. The only remaining moving parts would be in the gear case. I will probably need to open that next. Gari------------------
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
water pump seal replacement sailhog Cooling System 18 05-01-2015 04:00 PM
Shaft removal, cutless, stern tube replacement CalebD Drive Train / Propellers 93 02-07-2014 06:30 PM
Catalina 30 Engine Replacement: Prop Shaft Alignment and Stuffing Box RUSSELL Drive Train / Propellers 28 10-18-2011 01:11 PM
Winterizing on hard with PSS shaft seal? rigspelt Drive Train / Propellers 6 09-08-2009 03:52 PM
Oil Pressure / Rear oil seal - Next step Mark Harrington Drive Train / Propellers 6 11-24-2008 08:51 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2021 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved