water in the oil

[Robert L]

1971 Ericson with A-4 overhauled mid 80's. Recently changed exhaust, 3rd time in past 10 years, this time stainless. All fittings including exhaust flange appear solid. Cranked engine and cylinders flooded. Water also flowed into crankcase oil. Followed Moyer Marine procedures to clean oil and remove water. Finally got engine to dry out and start while raw water valve closed. Opened raw water valve after a minute or two to avoid failure of the water pump impeller. Engine continued to run but popped frequently. I suppose that this is water getting into the combustion chamber. No sign of exhaust leak. Finally after about 10 minutes, secured raw water supply then immediately turned off the engine. Disconnected the exhaust flange from the exhaust manifold and water ran out of the exhaust manifold. Also checked the engine oil which picked up nearly a quart of water. Flushed the engine oil again and did a compression check. Engine is tired but ran well before latest issue. Compression if I checked it correctly was #1-4 (72, 70, 55, and 60).

Where do I go from here, head gasket, exhaust manifold, water pump?

Thanks, Robert L

[hanleyclifford]

It sounds like you have an internal leak in the water system. To find out do a pressure test. Plug the water pump output hose and remove the fitting at the back of the manifold where the water exits to the hot section. Install a schraeder valve at one end or the other. Should hold 20 psi.

[edwardc]

I had the exact same symptoms two summers ago. Turned out to be a crack in the block between the cooling jacket and the area just below one of the exhaust valves. This allowed water into the manifold but still passed compression checks.

A pressure check of the block's cooling jacket will tell.

[Robert L]

Thanks Hanley and Ed.

Water jacket in manifold is tight and holds pressure.
Air blown into the engine water jacket is a different story. It will not pressurize at all. Air flows freely into the manifold and out the exhaust flange opening (exhaust flange and pipe have been removed to troubleshoot)

I suspect that the next step is to remove the manifold and investigate?

Robert L

[edwardc]

Thanks Hanley and Ed.

Water jacket in manifold is tight and holds pressure.
Air blown into the engine water jacket is a different story. It will not pressurize at all. Air flows freely into the manifold and out the exhaust flange opening (exhaust flange and pipe have been removed to troubleshoot)

I suspect that the next step is to remove the manifold and investigate?

Robert L

Yep, that's the next step. Unfortunately, you're following the exact same course I did. What I found in my case was the air from the cooling jacket was exiting into the #3's exhaust port, and to a lesser extent, the "sistered" #3 & #4 intake port, even when the associated valves were closed. Unfortunately, with good compression checks, the only way this can happen is through a cracked block. I tried to inspect the inside of the ports, but never could see the crack.

In my case, I had to pull the engine. I ended up stripping it part way down and purchasing a rebuilt short-block from Moyer and building that back up.

[Robert L]

Ed,

Removed manifold, filled engine with water and it poured out the #3 exhaust port but nowhere else. Removed head and there was no sign of a gasket issue. Looks like I have the same problem as you. Of those block failures that do occur, I wonder if this spot is historically a problem.

I plan to do the same, as you Ed, get a short block and rebuilt with some of my own accessories. If you have any tips from your recent experience, please let me know.

Thanks,
Robert L

[edwardc]

Ed,

Removed manifold, filled engine with water and it poured out the #3 exhaust port but nowhere else. Removed head and there was no sign of a gasket issue. Looks like I have the same problem as you.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I know the pain it causes. But at least you have time to save most of the season.

Of those block failures that do occur, I wonder if this spot is historically a problem.

As I understand it, there is a region along the valve chambers that's visible from inside the block that often seems to be the site of longitudinal cracks on most cracked blocks I've heard about, but I'm no expert. Maybe Don or admin Bill could supply more insight here, based on the vastly greater number of blocks they've seen. If you've got the time and the inclination, maybe you could flip yours and pop the oil pan to take a look once the engine is out.

In my own case, I suspect the crack was started by improper winterization by the previous owner. Any chance yours is freeze-damage related?

I plan to do the same, as you Ed, get a short block and rebuilt with some of my own accessories. If you have any tips from your recent experience, please let me know.

The number one tip I have is that if you are raw water cooled, now is the time to switch to FWC. I know it will add about $600 to the project, but it's worth every penny. You will have a pristine clean cooling jacket that will have never seen salt water from day one. And no more worries about cracked blocks or heads from freeze damage. Winterizing is much simpler, as you don't have to fiddle with removing the thermostat.

Tip 2: Even with the cracked block, you can still get a substantial amount of the core charge back. In some cases, the crack is even reparable with specialized welding techniques. So you should definitely return it to Moyer in exchange for the rebuilt short block. They will evaluate it and let you know.

Tip 3: If you're within driving distance of Moyer's machine shop in PA and have access to a pickup truck, it is definitely worth your while to drive up there to drop off your old block and pick up the rebuilt one. The savings on freight charges is significant.

Tip 4: Watch for early vs late incompatabilities. Because a short block cannot be fully tested, you need to be aware of certain things. In my own case, the alt, manifold, head, water pump, carb, and distributor were all relatively new so I kept them. The starter was original but in good shape, so I kept that too. All were from a late-model engine. In the interest of saving some time, I elected to add a rebuilt accessory drive to the Moyer order.
A problem arose as a result of this. My rebuilt short block used an early-model block that was built up as a late-model. In the early-model, the distributor hold-down bolt hole is in the top of the accessory drive. In the late-model, it's in the top of the block flange that the accessory drive mounts on. My engine was shipped with a late model rebuilt accessory drive, and as a result, I ended up with no hole at all to clamp the distributor! Ended up having to drill one in the block flange and tap it myself.

That's all I can think of right now. Let you know if I think of any more.

[Robert L]

Appreciate the advice Ed.

I plan to deliver my old block and pick up the short block. I'm originally from the Harrisburg area and it's time to visit my brothers.

I didn't think about fresh water cooled, but I will check it out. I live along the Chesapeake in Virginia, and although it does get cold at times, I keep my cabin heated in the winter, so I don't think freezing was the issue with my block

I'll be alert for compatible fittings since you alerted me with your experience with the accessory drive mount hole.

Thanks,
Robert L

[edwardc]

I'm further up the Chesapeake, on the Patapsco just south of Key Bridge & Baltimore. Although it was a really mild winter this time, it does get cold here. Last winter, the recording thermometer I keep on board recorded a low of 16 deg F in the cabin. (I know, I know, our friends up in the frozen north are laughing about calling that cold! )

But even if you're not worried about freezing, there's a big advantage to FWC. The raw water tends to be loaded with microscopic life and organic deritus. This stuff gets cooked in the engine and turns into a thick black sludge that coats the inside of all the cooling passages. Inches of the stuff collect in the bottom of the block's cooling jacket, obstructing cooling water flow around the lower portions of the cylinders. The problem even happens in fresh water lakes.

Adding FWC to an engine that has been long time RWC can have problems unless you thoroughly clean out the entire cooling system first. But if you're starting with a freshly-rebuilt block, it will already be clean as a whistle. To that's why I say now is the time.

One more tip: When you do go FWC, since you're retaining your manifold, you should take it to a radiator shop and get it hot-tanked so you know it's clean too. Failing that, at a minimum do an acid flush and check the water flow rate through it.

[Robert L]

Appreciate the sound advice and, I have looked at the fresh water mod from MMI. Unfortunately, my flywheel is virtually against the bulkhead and would require a major construction project to move it. There may be another place to mount it, and I'll keep looking for options. In the meantime, I'll continue to scoop jellyfish out of my raw water strainer.

OBTW, I've removed my engine, stripped it down and intend to load it tonight and deliver it to MMI tomorrow to swap for a short block. The only accessory that I'm getting is the MMI flange water pump. My Oberdorfer was getting a bit worn and even with new seals and shaft, I believe the housing was allowing a bit of wobble. Besides, I like the idea of the thumb screws (it was difficult for me to manipulate a screw driver with my configuration), and I won't need to remember my grease cup.

See you on the Chesapeake, at least until I sell my boat. She was on the market when the block gave out. Hopefully, someone will appreciate a rebuilt A4.

[edwardc]

Indigo has an alternate mount solution that runs off the accessory drive and fits within the existing engine "envelope".