Need A4 help and guidance in Bellingham WA

[ndutton]

Muriatic acid will do no good if you can't get it in there and from the sounds of your restricted flow you can't. I suggest complete removal of the manifold so you can get after it on the bench, I think you're headed that way anyway.

Before anything else you should perform a pressure test. There are threads on this forum describing the technique. There's no point in cleaning out a manifold that's rusted through. If you are uncomfortable with this test an engine shop can do it easily. If it fails the test, replace it and be done.

There are 2 freeze* plugs on the side of the manifold than can be removed to gain access to the water jacket portion. Through there you can poke, prod or whatever to clean her out. Solvent won't do any good. You may even consider taking it to an engine rebuilder or radiator shop for a "boil out". Once the clean out is complete these holes can be filled with replacement freeze* plugs or tapped for threaded pipe plugs.

*The common term "freeze plug" is a misnomer, not there for freeze protection at all. It is actually a "core plug" that fills a hole necessary in the casting process. I inaccurately called it a freeze plug here only due to the common usage and recognizable appearance.

[junaido]

Well I I guess we have to go the outboard route. Seemed like we were so close to getting it going...

[ndutton]

Do you already have an outboard? If not, it might cost the same or less to replace the manifold, probably take less time too.

[Marian Claire]

Junaido: What Neil said. But before you give up. How is the access to the manifold? Could you remove the two fittings and clean them and try and clean the manifold inplace? As best as I can tell there is no indication of a manifold leak it seems to just be plugged. I used a water hose and a wire to flush out the water passages of my spare manifold. If it is just impacted goo it may clear. It may make a mess but you could drape the engine to cut down on some of the mess. I do not know how the passages line up in the manifold so this idea may not work. FWIW. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[ILikeRust]

Well I I guess we have to go the outboard route.

Why so?

Seemed like we were so close to getting it going...

Exactly. Which is why I'm unclear as to why you are thinking you should just starp an outboard on?

It's fixable. Truly it is.

[joe_db]

Easy check:
Take the hoses off the manifold. Run a garden hose into the foward end and water should come out the aft end. You can do this on or off the engine. Moyer sells new manifolds too

[Mark Millbauer]

Junaido,
the exaust manifold on my C27 was blocked when I purchased the boat. Same symptoms you are experiencing. It took 30 minutes to clear and clean it out as follows:
I connected a hose to the upper coolant water intake fitting on the manifold. I ran the hose up out the companion way hatch to a funnel tied to the boom. I then connected a hose from the coolant water exit fitting ont he manifold to 5 gal bucket in the port cockpit lazzerette. I filled the funnel with the muratic acid/water mix and let it sit. After 15 minutes black muratic/water mix started to trickle out the exit hose into the bucket. After the funnel and hose was empty of the acid mix, I did it again. this dose only tool about 5 minutes and then it was flowing well. I then connected a garden hose to the intake port on the manifold and flushed it out. I did,nt dlo this next step but once you have it cleared out, you may want to connect a tire pump to one of the coolant fittings on the manifold and a air pressure gauge to the other and pump about 20 lbs of pressure into it. If it holds air pressure, the manifold is reasonably sound and should have no water leaks into the intake and exhaust gas ports.

That said, I assume you are still in Bellingham. Not the best weather for your trip anyway.

mark

Mark

[junaido]

OK, just returned from Bellingham after a weekend messing with the A4. We are not mechanically inclined , we have tried our best to get this A4 going but beginning to think we are out of our depth here.

To wit, debugged the water circuit starting at the through hull (its fine), water pump impeller (old one looked kind of shot, all the vanes were intact but a little force from a needle nose plier and the thing pulled off its metal core and came off), we took out the thermostat, checked that there was a healthy flow of water coming out from the thermostat dome and we checked the 90 degree elbow thingy on the manifold intake.

We rigged up the muriatric acid IV as per Mark's post (thank you Mark), with the funnel and hose going into the manifold. Most of the water/acid mix just stayed in the hose going into the manifold, maybe a cup of fluid came out the other end after about 30 minutes of this exercise. We did see some air bubbles come up the acid-filled hose. We then replaced the intake t-stat dome and ran the engine for a little bit with the same depressing trickle coming out the exhaust side.

Then we tried sticking a garden hose on the manifold water intake (the place where the hose from the thermostat dome enters the manifold). There is some pretty major blockage in there because after 30 seconds water started spraying back and I could not hold the hose in place. Only a trickle came out on the other end.

Two days of wrestling with A4 has yielded no improvement in the situation. We spent the remaining time installing an outboard bracket on the transom for "plan B". The idea of spending $600 for a manifold and then playing whack-a-mole with other problems like rusty exhaust and and who-knows-what-else does not sound very appealing.


We may have found the only mechanic in Bellingham who is willing to take a stab at an A4. He will look at it next week and give us his prognosis.

Junaid

[hanleyclifford]

Plugged ManifoldS

Sounds like you have isolated the problem which is half the battle. The manifold may have to come off for a cleaning which is not a big deal. It is possible to remove the two side casting plugs and either replace them or open the holes up for 3/4" NPT plugs. Your mechanic will explain this. The good news is that your manifold sounds like it holds pressure. Don't give up.

[ILikeRust]

Obviously you have to decide what's right for you, but I would urge you not to give up on your A4. There are too many out there that have suffered the same ignominious fate, to be replaced by an outboard slapped on the transom.

It really is not a complicated engine, as boat engines go, and I feel confident it can be made to run well and reliably. It always makes me just a little sad when I see a boat with an old A4 sitting unused down below, and an outboard bolted to a big bracket off the back pushing the boat around. I think you might find that the outboard is enough move the boat around in calm waters, but if you're out in anything a little uglier and need some power to punch through waves or a headwind, you might find the outboard is not up to the task, whereas your A4 would take it all in stride.

I would think you could either free up and unclog that manifold, or look for a salvaged one for sale on Craig's list or eBay or from local boatyards or marinas. I see used Atomic 4 engines and parts on Craig's list and eBay around here from time to time. That is, if you don't want to spring for a brand new one from Moyer, which, believe me, I fully understand. There is an advantage there, in that you know you are getting a brand-spanking new, quality cast part, with top-notch, excellent customer service standing behind it. The trade-off would be potentially spending much less for a used one, but without really confidently knowing how good it is. But of course, you can always carefully inspect it and negotiate a good price and terms with the seller.

Anyhow, I agree with Hanley - don't give up yet!

[joe_db]

Cleaning the manifold is a pretty easy* job. One way is just take it off and give it to a radiator shop to boil out.

*assuming the nuts aren't too corroded to get a socket on.

[Marian Claire]

Broken record here. I just pulled out a manifold I got a couple of years age. Trying to run a wire down it with the fittings on was not possible. After removing the fitting access was much better. The water passage seems to be a fairly straight shot from end to end on the top and outside of the manifold. There may be some kind of ridge about midway but it is hard to tell.
I know I am not the one hunched over your engine or how accessible your engine is. If removing it is not what you want to do I would give cleaning it another shot.This time with out the fittings. Some liquid is getting thru so there must be a opening. Attack from both ends. A little water in one end, ream it with the wire. A little water in the other end, ream it with the wire. Repeat. Repeat. Remember the eye protection if any acid is involved. The high pressure my just be jamming the stuff worse. If you start getting flow then add some pressure. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[JOHN COOKSON]

Outboard engines aren't trouble free!! As long as you have an engine on a boat you are going to have M&R (maintenance & repair) issues. An outboard add on will decrease the value of your boat.

I got so sick and tired of the 90 degree elbow on the south end of my A4manifold jamming up I replaced it with a straight barb. No more problems. Maybe this is all you need to do.

If you decide to pull the plug on the A4 take it off the boat and sell it. Why carry around the dead weight? You could get a few thousand for it.

TRUE GRIT

[junaido]

We have not given up on the A4 but are now thinking of it as a more long term project. It will not get us to Seattle, hence the outboard.

We did take the fittings off the manifold and try to ream it with a coat hanger wire. It would stop after going in an inch or two. I didn't push really hard for fear of breaking something.
Once we get it to Seattle I will try the acid cleanse and maybe take it to a radiator shop and boil it out.
If all else fails, there are qualified A4 experts in Seattle ( Pat's Marine ) that can fix it.
Boat will be kept in Lake Washington so fresh water will finally flow through this A4's veins if they ever get unclogged :-)


Thanks again for all the helpful advice and tips.

Junaid

[ILikeRust]

There's not really anything inside the manifold you're going to break by poking with a coat hanger wire. It's a big hunk of cast iron. If you managed to break through a coolant passage or something with a wire hanger, it was shot anyhow.

Hey, maybe you could reduce the size of your photos before you post them - it would make them far easier to take a look at...

Keep us up to date on the progress!