Need info on setting points

[domagami]

Hi;

Where can I get help understanding how to set the points? Is there a post here already related to this? YouTube video?

I'm chasing a problem with an engine that is not starting and I'm trying to beat the first hard freeze here in Chicago so I'm in a slight panic. Still have raw cooling water in the system.

A4 ran well all summer, just replaced alternator two weeks ago, has all of two hours on it. Took it to the Chicago lock under power, ran fine for another 90 minutes. Got past first of 22 bridges headed to the yard... and it sputtered and died. Rafted tow for the next three hours. My worst A4 nightmare.

I have replaced quite a bit in the hopes one of those parts was the culprit. No luck. Now I'm putting the distributor back together after replacing the condensor and points, but realize I don't know two things:

1) How to set the points - and here I'm even lost on the basics of where this ~.02 gap is supposed to be. (Between the circular brusher-like nodes?) I know there is a set screw, and #1 cyl pressure test, ccw flywheel for TDC, etc.... but a photo of where the gap should be would be great.

2) If I need to set the timing... where am I doing that?

Is it better to have the Moyer Manual or is this just a detail that is already posted that I've missed?

Many thanks for whatever assistance anyone can provide.

Mick

[Jesse Delanoy]

get the manual. it's money well spent.

[msmith10]

here's how to set the points: Turn off the battery switch. Remove distributor cap. Turn flywheel by hand until breaker point contact with the distributor cam is riding on one of the 4 high contact points on the distributor cam. In this position, the points are at their maximum opening distance, which should be, as I recall 0.018-0.020". The contact points are the 2 little round nubs that you're referring to. Check this with a blade type feeler gauge. If not correct, adjust by loosening the screw which holds the points to the breaker point plate a little bit, insert a screwdriver in the slot which spans the breaker point plate and the points, and twist a little. One direction will enlarge the gap, the other direction will close the gap. When correct, retighten the set screw. Loosening the screw a little will let you adjust as above without letting the points slide all over. This sets the "static" point timing, and if this is correct, the points will open and close the correct amount at the right time.

The above procedures are what is known as setting the timing. I'm sure you can get pictures of the process online somnewhere by googling the subject.

Once you get the engine running, you can fine tune the ignition timing by rotating the distributor a little while the engine in running under a load to achieve maximum rpm. Just get the engine warmed to normal operating temp, and while pulling at your dock lines at normal cruising speed (probably 1400-1800 rmp), loosen the clamp holding the distributor to the block, and rotate the distributor a little in both directions until you get maximum rpm, then retighten the clamp. Your ignition timing is now fine-tuned.
I'd recommend you buy Don Moyer's A4 manual. Once you really start digging into the engine, you may also want to get his instructional DVD's. I have the one on the reversing gear operation, and it's well worth the money.
One more thing-- make sure your cooling water intake valve is closed whenever you are turning the engine over without actually starting the engine. Otherwise you'll be pumping water into the muffler, the water will back up thru the exhaust, and in a short time will enter the engine. If this happens, you'll get water in the oil (the oil on the dispstick will look like a weak chocolate milkshake) and this will require 4-6 oil changes to get the water out (another lesson learned the hard way). Open the intake as soon as the engine starts up, of course.

[jhwelch]

This may sound a little obvious, but after that long trip do you have
fuel / are you getting fuel?

-jonathan

[msmith10]

By the way, if that doesn't get your engine started, you can do a search for tips on nonstarting engine. I know Don has posted a procedure to give you a logical approach. Don't panic. If your engine was running well all summer, it's not likely a major problem and you'll be able to get the boat out and winterize the engine before it gets really cold. Keep us posted on your progress and the folks on this forum will give you guidance.

[keithems]

a few suggestions...

i may be stating the obvious, but......

re.: setting the points -- in my boat i can't really see them with the distributor installed -- so i remove it, which is easy -- and then i can fool with it whenever and where ever......just make sure you mark its position, etc. before removal and don't move / crank the engine till you reinstall it....

also -- re. troubleshooting -- i've found by far the easiest and fastest way to see if it's a no-spark or no-fuel problem is to spray the carb throat with just a little starting fluid, then crank -- if it coughs then, u have a fuel problem -- if still no cough, a spark problem...

at least that worked for me...

[domagami]

Solution - Resolved?

So I'm running again. Why... I'm not completely sure I know.

It's possible (?) my points simply had burned out during my trip, and that I reached the last possible use of them - thus my quiet failure.

I want to say that maybe the fuel was the problem, especially since the carb was not flooded despite many tries at a restart. But then... it didn't fire with started in the flame arrestor either.

But after swapping out fuel lines, fuel filters, plugs, coils, negative coil lead, condenser, distributor cap, and finally points, it fired up on the first try. So I suppose it has to be the points.

The only oddity in all this is that as I was running in that last hour of use before it failed, I began to hear a 'thunk' here and there in the engine while under load. Although hard to pinpoint, it seemed to come from the starboard (alternator) side of the engine, and from inside the engine itself. Obviously something to check into in the spring, but still not sure what that was - nor am I sure I'm free of it until I test in the water in May.

A couple other things for anyone following this thread later looking for solutions:
- When the alternator was changed a couple weeks prior to all this, it's quite possible the electrician detached and then reattached the plug wires in the wrong sequence (?) and thus giving me that clunking noise? Something I didn't recheck in my panic to get underway (and later raft up) in order to make the next bridge raising. But definitely something get right immediately since it's so easy to check and correct.

- Along those lines, and please correct me if this is incorrect, Before I went through setting the points, I found it difficult to determine the right connection sequence for the plug wires. Unless I'm missing something, once you have #1 at TDC the rotor should point to the 'west', away-from-the-block, or to '9:00'... or however you like to describe it. As I remember the instructions, that should be the connection for plug wire #1, and the rest of the wires go 1,2,4,3 (clockwise on dist.) as stamped on the block (and in a dozen other places). But I have to say, before I set the points, it was not obvious to me, nor did I find a lot of documentation to describe the order of those connections on the distributor cap.

- The instructions on finding #1 starting compression were great, but two reminders for the other novices like me - remove all plugs to make turning the flywheel easier. And it can't be stated enough that you are looking for the START of compression in #1, not when it really pushes your thumb back. I don't think I took the instructions to heart as much as I should have. I just kept thinking "no matter what cylinder you check, that rotor will NEVER match up with the tab." ... and then I read more carefully.

Thanks again to everyone for assistance and encouragement. I'm glad I don't now need the hand crank that Don just put in the mail (I made one from conduit in my rush to get winterized), but it should serve as a nice talisman to keep the gremlins away.

Now I'm off to the fuel forum to better understand how to keep that end of things clean and working smoothly.

Regards,

Mick

[sastanley]

Now I'm off to the fuel forum to better understand how to keep that end of things clean and working smoothly.

Regards,

Mick

Nice work Mick...

I recently discovered that there appears to be no filtration in my Catalina 30...I'll see you over there!

[keithems]

trying many things

re. trying many things and not sure if it's a fuel or ignition problem -- i had several crank but no start episodes this summer -- in all cases, it was always an ignition problem -- almost always the little wire that goes under the distributor cap and connects to the points -- it can get frayed or not be connected right or missing -- in all the tons of stuff written about tuneups, almost no one mentions that wire....

[msmith10]

I second keithems suggestion. I have seen this problem also. Now, I always check for continuity thru that wire (I think it's the secondary side of the circuit- the one that triggers the current in the primary windings of the coil to collapse and discharge high voltage out the tower lead) since having a problem with it last summer. It's a little wire and subject to damage. But it's best to troubleshoot systematically-- compression is fairly easy to check, spark is pretty easy also, then fuel, which I think is the hardest part.

Mark Smith
1977 c&c30 mk 1 -- rehab constantly ongoing with no end in sight

[domagami]

Keithems - I agree with you, this is not an obvious thing to check as you look for the cause.

However, it was actually something I looked for right off the bat. I keep the Moyer Marine newsletters on board and when the problem started I cracked it open to the troubleshooting section. One of the first suggestions I saw was about checking the negative lead - something I would have never otherwise thought to inspect. In checking, it did seem to have more wear than it should have, although in my case I don't think it was the ultimate source of the problem. But like so many other parts, since I'm down there already....

[hanleyclifford]

Since the subject of points has come up again I thought it might be a good idea to reactivate this thread. FWIW, I strongly recommend the purchase and use of the dwell meter. It is inexpensive and easy to use. It reveals instantly whether or not a distributor is supplying correct dwell to the coil and saves a lot of time in diagnosis. It is appropriate for both points and EI systems, though admittedly there is no adustment on the EI. Just as an aside, it is the dwell that is important, not the [I]gap[I], on point style systems. The .018-.020 setting is a suggested starting point. In most cases a smaller setting will be required to get the correct dwell.