Head Gasket Torquing -- Dont Be That Guy

[ButchPetty]

I don't know where my brains were at. Having done all this before I just assumed I knew what the hay I was doing. It, once again, brings me back to an old saying an ex-boss use to say all the time: "How do you spell assume? Ass-u-me. Or don't make an ASS out of U or ME."

From the very beginning of the torquing process something just didn't seem right. In the back of my head something was bugging me. The reason? Because almost none of the head bolts were torquing down any further. I just blew it off as no big deal. Even though I knew in the back of my mind that it wasn't right. The bolts should have been drawing down.

So there I was yesterday thinking the head was torqued RIGHT and decided to do the pre-sea trial. I started the motor, got it up to temp and engaged the prop. Mind you I was tied to the dock. About 30 to 45 minutes had passed. I'm watching the gages and all is good. I pop the top on the beer in the cockpit and sit back with my smoke and watch the ripples from the prop behind the boat. A little bored at this point I walk down into the cabin for a close look at the A4. What is that? No!! That isn't water coming up around that bolt?!?!?! Aww heck, it cant be. Go back to the cockpit and check on the gage readings and sip on my beer some more. Engine sounds good. Sip sip.
Life just may be looking up. I go back down into the cabin. *** ?!?!?! No Way !!!! Almost every single bolt has water coming out of the threads. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Upon further inspection I notice water seeping out from under the head gasket in a couple of spots, carb area, aft area, forward area. At this point I was just flabbergasted. I kill the engine and proceeded with the head scratching routine for about twenty minutes or so. The fact was there, square in my face. The head gaskets had not seated right anywhere. The entire damn thing was leaking.

So I pulled out the Moyer Marine Manual/Bible and started reading. I had done something wrong. There it was! Jumped right out at me.

Now I must admit that I toyed with the idea of just not mentioning this at all and avoid personal embarrassment. But it didn't take long to kick that idea aside. I'm to old to be embarrassed anymore. Do do happens! Get over it! Plus that is the purpose of the great forum anyway........share the knowledge.

What I did WRONG:
I, the dumb arse I was, torqued my head down completely opposite of the way it should have been done. I had originally done the original start up and killed the engine and let it cool down, then re-torqued the head. And like I mentioned above the nuts did not move. That should have been my SIGN.

Moral of this story and How To Do It Right:
You MUST torque when the engine is running as soon as it hits 150 degrees, just like the manual says. THEN cool the motor and repeat.

I am ordering new gasket. And yes, now the onslaught of laughter can begin. Bring it.

[Administrator]

Butch:

How did you seal the studs?

Bill

[ButchPetty]

The same way I did the last time Bill, the aviation permatex from MMI.

What I'm sure happened was that the graphite sealer compound in the gaskets heated up like it was supposed to, but instead of compressing both gaskets together at 150 degrees by torquing, I let it cool down, and in turn the gaskets cooled down and wouldn't allow me to tighten them on down.

I actually tried to re torque at 150 degrees, after the fact, and they did go down a bit, but by then it was too late. Water had done passed the gasket in too many spot and at that point no seal is ever going to be had, especially when the water is the rust color crap that is typical after initial start up.

It really is not big deal. Just a delay........another delay.

[hanleyclifford]

Butch - I gotta fess up too on this one. I have never retorqued a hot head but for some reason have not paid the penalty you did. A few things I do that may be of interest. I always wire brush and oil (with light machine oil) the theads both of studs and nuts. I also run a tap thru the nuts and a die down the studs. After starting each nut down the stud I apply another drop of oil and proceed building torque in three stages to 35 ft lbs. In other words I minimize any possible resistance to get the max value bearing on the head. I retorque cold at least 3 times.

[ButchPetty]

Butch - I gotta fess up too on this one. I have never retorqued a hot head but for some reason have not paid the penalty you did. A few things I do that may be of interest. I always wire brush and oil (with light machine oil) the theads both of studs and nuts. I also run a tap thru the nuts and a die down the studs. After starting each nut down the stud I apply another drop of oil and proceed building torque in three stages to 35 ft lbs. In other words I minimize any possible resistance to get the max value bearing on the head. I retorque cold at least 3 times.

I think you indeed have been lucky.
I actually did all the other things you said you do also.
Hey, it's just another example of the great luck I have.

Actually, I was breezing thru the threads this am after I posted this thread to see if anyone else had ever fessed up and I happen to notice all the "bolt leaking" threads. If I had to bet money I would bet on the side that most of those were caused by the same thing. Hey.........Im just saying.

[hanleyclifford]

This does raise some questions for me. As a young apprentice in the automobile mechanic field I was taught to retorque heads cold. Can anyone shed light on why the Atomic 4 wants the first retorque done at 150 degrees? I did read the instruction to that effect in the Moyer Manual. But what is the logic behind it?

[ArtJ]

Could there have been something wrong with the gasket, or could it possibly
have been contaminated? Was it different (mfr, style etc) from usual?

Just a thought

Regards

[roadnsky]

This does raise some questions for me. As a young apprentice in the automobile mechanic field I was taught to retorque heads cold. Can anyone shed light on why the Atomic 4 wants the first retorque done at 150 degrees? I did read the instruction to that effect in the Moyer Manual. But what is the logic behind it?

You guys might find this thread interesting regarding the procedure...

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332&highlight=Head+Re-torque

[ButchPetty]

Jerry, that hits it dead on the head.

I also must state that when I did it last time, the MMI way, I had no problems at all.

I also think because of the two (2) gasket system it is a must, or should be.

But to quantify Hanley's statement......I, until this A4, was of the same mindset having worked on motors all my life.

[ButchPetty]

Could there have been something wrong with the gasket, or could it possibly
have been contaminated? Was it different (mfr, style etc) from usual?

Just a thought

Regards

Art, there were no VISIBLE defects. I think the main issue was that of the rusty water.
After an engine sits dry or after an acid flush you continue to get crappy looking water out of the motor for the first few startups, or more till it is completely flushed. And that is some nasty mammy jammy water my friend.

[lat 64]

We have two camps that have been each having luck torquing heads hot or cold. I'm sure one is better than the other, but I think something is a bit bent to give Butch his gasket seal failure so completely. I would take a stab at saying the head is warped, but I am shy about asking things like; did you check the flatness of the head? Don't want annoy you with obvious things but I could not find a reference to it in your posts.

Scratching my head in solidarity,
russ

[ButchPetty]

We have two camps that have been each having luck torquing heads hot or cold. I'm sure one is better than the other, but I think something is a bit bent to give Butch his gasket seal failure so completely. I would take a stab at saying the head is warped, but I am shy about asking things like; did you check the flatness of the head? Don't want annoy you with obvious things but I could not find a reference to it in your posts.

Scratching my head in solidarity,
russ

Yeah man, I checked the head out when I first started diagnosing the water in oil issue.
Remember this isnt one little leaky thing. It was leaking in almost every bolt except the front starboard corner and two of the center one and even from the gasket itself. Refer to first post.
I just screwed up.

[hanleyclifford]

I looked at the thread showing how Don Moyer does it and I appreciate that it must work because he has put out so many successful Atomic 4 rebuilds. I just don't understand the theory. It would seem that retorquing a hot engine would yield lower effective torque values due to expansion. What am I not getting here?

[BryanLee]

Thanks for fessing up publicly! I will be re-assembling my engine soon and appropriate finding these little "watch out!" posts on the forum. While I am following the manual closely since this is my first time and I am sure I will read it, this will impress it on me a bit more so hopefully I will do it right, or more likely I will know what happened when the water squirts out

[hanleyclifford]

Found something interesting. Coefficient of expansion for cast iron - 5.9 but for steel - 7.3

Forgive the mind expansion. It would seem that as the engine heats up the torque on the head studs would decrease since the studs, being steel, are expanding linearly per degree faster than the cast iron. Hence retorqing hot would yield a greater value as the engine cools down and the studs contract at a greater rate than the casting. I'm hoping that some of our engineer Afourians can shed some light on this notion - or blow it out of the water as the case may be. Still a little