engine starts with only one cylinder???

[nick0716]

Hi this is my first post here,
I recently bought a 75' Catalina 27ft. Guy said carb needed to be rebuilt or cleaned and it wouldn't start..
I just regapped the plugs and put a fresh charger on the old battery and it studdered but started with a huge roooar!! at idle it would bog down and shut off.. Took it out and used motor to come back in..
Tried starting it a week later wouldn't start.... so i read these boards for the past week and gathered enough info to trouble shoot it..

*Checked for spark at plugs, check all fire and gapped
*Changed oil with siphon, check, but oil seemed to be past full after adding exactly what i took out
*checked fuel pump(electronic), check and lines all working with no air leak
*took off carb cleaned it and put back on, didn't see and grime or gunk, so i put back together after blowing a lot of air through the fittings
*last i checked compression cylinder 1-35,2-35,3-0,4-110, zero compression on 3

so i went out and bought mmo and drenched 1,2and 3 cylinder over the last 48 hrs, and got 1 and 2 up to 60psi and 3 got 10psi. as i was starting the engine(with raw water closed) i kept #4 plug in the engine and1,2 and 3 there were no plug, i turned and turned and turned and it started on #4 cylinder only and died but it happened a few times. when all the plugs are in it wont start it just turns and turns, this left me confused.. i tried to push the valves in #3 but really cant feel anything...
Im borderline buying gaskets for head, and mani and open it up to see whats up.. but was hoping someone could help 1st..

guess the question is how did it start and run for 2 hrs stop and run again but a week later it wont start?

how does it start on only on cylinder?

Any ideas are very welcome as my work week starts and wont get to work on the boat till next Sunday....

sorry so its long
thanks, nick

[Al Schober]

Hi Nick,
Welcome to the BB! We have lots of knowledgable folks here - I'm surprised none of them has jumped in yet.
I won't begin to guess why the engine ran for 2 hours, and is now showing the symptoms you report. My crystal ball isn't that good!
The reason it won't run on #4 only I can guess at. Taking out the other 3 plugs doesn't make it into a healthy 1 cylinder engine. It's more like a 1 cylinder engine with a huge vacuum leak, pulling air into the manifold through the #3 cylinder with the apparently open valves. Putting the spark plugs into #1 and #2 makes them act like an air compressor, bogging down any power you're getting from #4.
Your present compression number indicate a) a stuck valve (or two) on cylinder #3, and b) possibly a blown head gasket between #1 and #2 cylinders. The increase in compression in #1 and #2 due to the MMO treatment could be due to the MMO freeing up the rings a bit.
Anyway, you have a sick engine. It's possible you can restore it to health without removing the head, but I doubt it will be worth the time and effort - or be successful.
Two recommendations. First (FIRST!) buy a copy of Moyer's rebuild manual and read it. Second, get the engine out of the boat and into a shop where you can work on it properly. It sounds to me like you're going to need a valve job and new rings - as a minimum.
Just my opinion.

Al

[Dave Neptune]

Ouch!

Nick, yoour compression numbers are a bit baffling. I would guess that since you have compression in one cylinder that the others are low because the rings may be stuck and or the valves. Did it smoke (blue-gray) when you got it running? Also how rough did it run while pushing the boat not at idle?

I would recheck the compression numbers since you had it running and see if they changed a bit. Be sure that all the plugs are removed, the throttle is wide open and the choke also. Also be sure the battery(s) are fully charged and then check the compression. After you have recorded these numbers dorp an ounce or two of "motor oil" into a cylinder and recheck the compression, do this one at a time while adding the oil.

Let us know what you find out before tackling the head, the gasket may be fine.
As far as the carb you could still have a bit of gunk in the idle transfer ports around the butterfly valve or a poor gasket seal around the idle well. We'll fix that later.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

Hi Nick. It is very common for new owners to get the plug wires wrong.

the firing order is 1-2-4-3. #1 is at the flywheel end. Al's right...it won't run with only one plug wire attached.

Continue to douse the cylinders with some MMO and let it sit a few days..I use an oil can..about 5 or 6 squirts...then turn it over with the starter just enough to shake up the oil.

An allen wrench may be able to reach the stuck valve(s) and whack & unstick them. I have a pesky valve that takes a few hours of running to free up.

Make sure the fuel is fresh & add some MMO into the fuel..that will also help lubricate the valves.

I'd recommend baby steps here..it is a work in progress. Keep taking regular compression readings...they will always be higher after squirting some oil in the cylinders. Al's also correct that the compression tests can help diagnose other potential issues..I am not quite sure I'd yank the motor just yet. Even though I am sure you'd like a good running motor, it will run on 3 cylinders for a long time.

edit - good advice from our buddy Dave Neptune...make sure you read the story about his motor & its subsequent resurrection.

[nick0716]

thanks guys

yes will check on battery and make sure its full charge...

the idle was a lil rough but it started back then..

i have all the plugs/wires in order..

also i have the pdf of the manual is this the same?

2 more thngs may help..

1- when it started to not start i pulled the dis cap and looked at the points, realized i didnt know what i was doing and put it back on the way i took it off...

2-after trying to start for a few tries a grey liquid pools in the carb its dark grey. Either its the mmo pulling gunk off or what else?

3-yes as i was driving it in the only time i had power we were going with the wind and a light white smoke kinda was flodding the cockpit, i turned the rpm down a lil and it went away..

i have no need to move the engine from my boat, if i buy all the gaskets and pull it apart wouldnt this give me access to repair all valves that are sticking?

my POA now is give it till next week mmo every day till then..
If cant get it started then i will order gaskets and pull it apart and clean..
new plugs and new oil. expecting that will take 3 days..

I bought a skinny metal rod and tried to feel for valves,all i feel is the cylinder going up and down. no valves. the valves are on the alternator side of the engine? i read and checked forums on a diagram on how to push it down or detailed instructions but to no avail.. this may be the golden tix to getthe boat up n running....

thanks

[ArtJ]

The valves are not on the alternator side. That is where the pistons are.
If you remove the plugs and look in with a flashlight, you should be able
to see a corner of the piston on the alternator side and one of the valves
on the other side.

Good luck

Art

[msmith10]

Make sure your water intake valve is closed if you're cranking and the engine doesn't start, or while doing compression testing-- anytime starter is cranking for more than 5 seconds or so without the engine starting. Otherwise you'll pump water into the exhaust and muffler which will back up into the manifold then into your oil. Check your oil. If you got water in the oil it looks kind of like a milk shake-- could be dark gray if the oil was dirty to start with.

[Al Schober]

Nick,
The manual you need is the Moyer Service and Overhaul Manual. Go to the Moyer home page, click on Online Catalog, then on Manuals. It's the first one.

Al

[nick0716]

went back on the boat today and checked compression.

numbers are the same for each cylinder
1-60
2-60
3-0
4-110

so im going to pull the head replace the gasket, replace intake mani gasket, carb to intake mani gasket, clean valves and reinstall. hopefully this should fix some problems..

btw never done this before and on a extreme budget so can only afford gaskets, plugs and oil...

any suggestions?

[rigspelt]

I hesitate to tread into this kind of thread because I have no experience inside the head and block, except when I had the manifold off I did adjust the valve tappet clearances. They were all slightly off in our engine, and it started and ran much better. That's a small factor in all this however, just one task to add to your list while you have it apart. It also lets you have a look at the valve springs and valve stems. The cover is on the block below the manifold.

[Mark Millbauer]

Nick,
I applaud you for mustering up the guts to tackle the job yourself. Doing so will be very rewarding. I also share your budget concerns and therefore urge you to not just put it back together with the new parts before thoroughly checking out the valves, head, block deck, cooling passages, and and everything else you can check with the head and manifold off. Hopefully you won't need any additional parts but a little bit of careful inspection of some key components could save you duplication of labor and parts $$$.
Good luck!

Mark
C27 "Solution"

[dvd]

Nick,

As bad as you want to get into the head gasket replacement, I would hold off on that. Your 0 compression cylinder either has stuck valve or the rings are shot. I would bet that its only stuck valve. I think that before I tore the head off I would get the engine running. Even if you have no compression in one cylinder you should be able to get the thing running. once you get it running let it run at the dock for a long time. Be sure to closely monitor the engine temp while it is runnning. (make sure you have reopened the raw water valve). This old engine may have been sitting around for a longtime and could very easily start operating ok once you get it started. If you can get it running but it doesnt run well, I would work it over with more MMO in the cylinders. Remember to make sure you have good fuel in the tank.

DVD

[dvd]

Nick,

Also, after you make sure the fuel in the tank hasnt turned to varnish, put alot of mmo in the gas tank so it will start to lub the top end the engine.

dvd

[hanleyclifford]

I agree with dvd. Keep working with the fuel and make sure you have a good spark. But do study the MM manual carefully so that if you do eventually have to pull the head, you will have a correct diagnosis.

[Dave Neptune]

Hmmmmmmm

Nick, you said it was running OK then things started to go asunder correct?
Your 0 preassure cylinder indicates a stuck valve ~~ no biggie~~ they can be worked loose with patience an allen wrench and top oil in the gas.
The 2 cylinders @ 60 could be stuck rings or a hole in the H/gasket between the two cylinders.
What I didn't like was tha gray puddle in the carb~~ sounds like water getting back in through an exhaust valve. Good thing is that if it is indeed water getting in that could well be YOUR PROBLEM. The water will rust things up a bit and can cause all sorts of sticking in the valves or rings.
Take a look at the 0 cylinder and see if you can see or feel a stuck valve. Try to get her running again with some fresh fuel with MMO or a good two stroke oil, mix about a hundred to one with the two stroke (I recomend a motorcycle type Hi-performance synthetic) and let the engine warm up for a while. Then recheck you compression numbers. If the two cylinders that were 60 are now 75 & 60 the problem is probably in the rings and not the headgasket.

Dave Neptune