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  #51   IP: 75.74.240.203
Old 05-11-2015, 10:04 PM
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Here's what a dead coil looks like

Here's what an earlier screaming hot coil looked like after I took it out. My mechanic had earlier moved the mount from the engine to the bulkhead (good!) but mounted it sideways (bad!). This is pre-ballast resistor, of course. When I saw this, there was no fluid left inside, which gave me another clue that the coil had failed.
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Old 05-11-2015, 11:09 PM
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Question

That does look bad, but please explain the part about sideways mounting being bad.
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:42 AM
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I was one of the ones that had all the problems. Prior to the coil current issue being understood EI could be a pain.
That issue is solved now
What EI does for you, among other things, is make the system much less sensitive to moisture. I got mine originally for this reason. It also has a good and bad effect of firing really nasty plugs. You can end up masking problems you really shoud be fixing


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmickey19 View Post
Yet another thread on electronic ignition/coil problems. Everyone I know who has gone this route has had problems.
After reading thru all this I have to ask, Why would anyone want to put themselves thru this BS when the original AC Delco system works just fine.
I've owned my 73 A4 since 1986 and have only replaced the coil once. $40 worth of tune up parts every couple of years and this marvelous old machine keeps running like a top!
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdecker View Post
Here's what an earlier screaming hot coil looked like after I took it out. My mechanic had earlier moved the mount from the engine to the bulkhead (good!) but mounted it sideways (bad!). This is pre-ballast resistor, of course. When I saw this, there was no fluid left inside, which gave me another clue that the coil had failed.
These ACCEL SuperStock coils are excellent high-performance coils. They're designed with optimized low resistance and a high turns ratio, for higher energy output. This also results in quicker starts, improved throttle response, and more high-rpm power.


Accels' specs state 1.400 ohms for this coil - far too little for our A4 power.

Were you running this coil with your electronic ignition?

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Old 05-12-2015, 09:37 PM
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Phil, can you describe the sequence of events/decisions that led to the selection of the Accel coil?
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
Accels' specs state 1.400 ohms for this coil - far too little for our A4 power.

Were you running this coil with your electronic ignition?

Ding ding..I had one of these back in the day...Mine lasted about 50 minutes.

I've had ZERO trouble with my new (last year) Moyer spec coil when they started offering them again.

Haven't we been thru all of this already?? I get confused there are so many threads...
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Last edited by sastanley; 05-12-2015 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Haven't we been thru all of this already?? I get confused there are so many threads...
What do you find confusing Shawn?
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:21 PM
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Exclamation

We just keep talking about it, that's all. I realize that someone else will have the same problem from time to time, but we keep hashing this out over and over again and repeatedly drag the threads on and on. I am the guy with the OOW charging system, and even I haven't had any coil problems for years now.

Has pdecker got his stuff all straight yet? Moyer coil yet?
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  #59   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-13-2015, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
We just keep talking about it, that's all. I realize that someone else will have the same problem from time to time, but we keep hashing this out over and over again and repeatedly drag the threads on and on. I am the guy with the OOW charging system, and even I haven't had any coil problems for years now.
Thanks Shawn, well said. VERY well said.

No comment beyond that.
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Old 05-18-2015, 07:02 PM
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Why the Accel coil, and my latest real data

Someone asked why I put in an Accel coil. I was running down the ICW about 18 months ago, and one morning the engine would crank but not start after anchoring in the Alligator River overnight. I spent four days in Belhaven, NC after a 20+ mile Towboat US tow down the Alligator Pungo Canal trying to get the engine to run after finding I had no spark. I went to a car parts store with the old coil from Moyer. They didn't have an exact replacement, but an old mechanic assured me the Accel would work fine. It didn't. It turned out that my points had failed, even though I had replaced the points a month earlier. (Big cudos to Ken at Moyer Marine for many hours of free help isolating the problem. I couldn't have found it without him.) I got a replacement set of points for $5 at an auto parts store and was on my way again. The A4 ran fine until I got south of Vero Beach, when I had the rough running problem. I nursed it along, going slowly, and finally installed the electronic ignition after the engine died at Lake Boca. The engine worked feebly until I almost made it to my new home slip in Fort Lauderdale. I had to be towed the last three miles.

Fast forward to current day. I have the new Moyer coil and a ballast resistor installed, and the engine starts fine and runs happy. I'll take the boat out this weekend to see if it's really fixed. Here's the actual data.

Voltage from alternator to ground = 13.2 V.
Voltage from coil + to ground = 11.5 V

After 80 minutes of running at the slip in 85 degree ambient heat, the coil is between warm and hot to the touch. My thermocouple on my multimeter isn't working. But, the engine is purring and re-starts easily. I think this system is fixed.

By the way, I think vertical mounting is better than horizontal mounting because if the container pops like mine did, you can still have insulating oil surrounding the internal coil. The coil actually worked somewhat when it was in the condition shown in the photo above, and might have worked better if it had oil.

Phil Decker
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:16 PM
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Good to hear that you are closing in on a solution. That run down the ICW must have been nerve racking. Your voltage at alt+ sounds a little low but your voltage at coil+ is in a very safe range. Your experience demonstrates that this is not a "one size fits all" matter that is quickly and arbitrarily solved. It would be interesting to know what your amperage is thru coil+: far below 4 amps, I'll warrant. 0-10 amp analog gauges can be had for $4 plus shipping.
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Old 05-18-2015, 10:07 PM
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Phil - 13.2 VDC is really low for an alternator output - is that measured right on the alternator? Where's the ground? 13.2 is barely charging, that's lower than nominal float charge of about 13.4. Here's where focusing on coil voltage potentially ignores other problems....
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  #63   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-18-2015, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
Phil - 13.2 VDC is really low for an alternator output - is that measured right on the alternator? Where's the ground? 13.2 is barely charging, that's lower than nominal float charge of about 13.4. Here's where focusing on coil voltage potentially ignores other problems....
Focusing on one voltage point is perilous indeed. Saturday I did a check on Destiny and found voltage at alt+ to be 14.8v. At the main buss bar the reading (which displays on my digital voltmeter) was 14.26. Voltage at fuel pump was 13.2v and coil+ was 10.5v to 11.0v. Clearly, voltages can (and should be) all over the map. Each one is important for reason(s) specific to loads and position in the distribution "tree". I do agree that Phil needs to address his voltage at alt+ but the specific target voltage is a function of many parameters most of which are specific to each boat.
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Focusing on one voltage point is perilous indeed. Saturday I did a check on Destiny and found voltage at alt+ to be 14.8v. At the main buss bar the reading (which displays on my digital voltmeter) was 14.26. Voltage at fuel pump was 13.2v and coil+ was 10.5v to 11.0v. Clearly, voltages can (and should be) all over the map. Each one is important for reason(s) specific to loads and position in the distribution "tree". I do agree that Phil needs to address his voltage at alt+ but the specific target voltage is a function of many parameters most of which are specific to each boat.
What!?

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Old 08-07-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
What!?

Bill
Yeah, it's "messy". When the engine is running voltages can vary all over the system.
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:34 PM
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Exclamation It's time to put a stop to this

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Yeah, it's "messy". When the engine is running voltages can vary all over the system
I'm sure it's "messy" on some boats but the cold hard fact is the ABYC* specifies an allowable maximum 3% voltage drop on essential circuits. What this means is if you're measuring more than a 3% loss on a circuit, you need to redesign the circuit with larger wire** to mitigate the loss. Adding loads to an existing circuit (electric fuel pump, electric coolant pump, whatever) affects the voltage drop so these additions mean the entire circuit needs to be re-evaluated from source to end. That is basic electrical system design and proper execution.

For example, if your alternator output is 14 volts, you should not measure anything less than 13.6 volts anywhere in the boat's low voltage system.*** If you do, it's time for a wiring upgrade to handle the loads properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Clearly, voltages can (and should be) all over the map.
No they shouldn't and the ABYC is clear on this point. Measuring objectionable voltage drops all over one boat does not establish the standard for everyone else to follow. Analyzing your own reported numbers using 14.8V alternator output**** as a starting point:

Main buss @ 14.26V = 4% voltage drop, already substandard
Fuel pump @13.2V = 11% voltage drop, nearly 4 times the allowable ABYC standard
Coil + @ 10.5 - 11.0V = probably have resistor(s) in the circuit so the calculation would be skewed

Don't agree? Take it up with the ABYC and the NEC (National Electric Code)*****

Before repeating your "voltages can (and should be) all over the map" belief, for your benefit and that of the forum with Don's good name at the top of every page I implore you to read the ABYC Standard on allowable voltage drop (ABYC E-11.14.1.2.7). It is clearly presented, not subject to interpretation or opinion.


Footnotes:
* and the entire electrical industry
** poor connections, wire damage, etc. notwithstanding. We're not talking ignition secondary either so don't go there.
*** for essential circuits. Non-essential circuits are allowed a 10% voltage drop per the ABYC
**** far too high for conventional lead acid batteries according to Dan Pires, owner of the iconic Newport Beach Marine electrical business Lewco Electric. They've specialized in marine charging systems for 60 years.
***** Citations available if you really need them
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-10-2015 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:01 PM
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Power

Wow, you guys had a lot to say between 4/15 and 4/19. Don't know why the thread is listed in the 'current' ones on the web site.

But anyway, it is Power, not current (amps) that heats the coil. Power (Watts) is the product of amps x volts.

Furthermore, to get a bit more technical: In operation, it is not a DC system , but an AC system. In an AC system, particularly with an inductive load (the coil), the voltage and current are not in sync - one lags the other. That is why one needs a true RMS power meter to accurately measure power in an AC system. This may not be a big deal. Just shooting my mouth off.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:24 PM
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Actually Ware, there are other contributing factors, dwell being a big one. Electronic ignition has roughly twice the dwell of points ignition and we found that to be the tipping point in old coil destruction when 'upgrading' to EI.

The extreme example is leaving the ignition on when the engine is not running. There is a 60% chance the coil will be energized (@ the dwell of EI) although in real life it seems it's more like 95%. This is the ultimate dwell scenario and is guaranteed to cook off a coil in short order regardless of voltage, resistance or current.

The AC nature of the ignition system is more accurately a modified RMS system with only the positive side of the squared off sine wave and an unbalanced frequency partially as a function of dwell.

edit (added after HC's following post):
RMS = Root Mean Square
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-10-2015 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warefuller View Post
Wow, you guys had a lot to say between 4/15 and 4/19. Don't know why the thread is listed in the 'current' ones on the web site.

But anyway, it is Power, not current (amps) that heats the coil. Power (Watts) is the product of amps x volts.

Furthermore, to get a bit more technical: In operation, it is not a DC system , but an AC system. In an AC system, particularly with an inductive load (the coil), the voltage and current are not in sync - one lags the other. That is why one needs a true RMS power meter to accurately measure power in an AC system. This may not be a big deal. Just shooting my mouth off.
Not sure what RMS is but I do have a multi meter that gives good readings everywhere in addition to the gauges on the boat which agree with the multi meter. As you are late to the party you will soon see that this is an ongoing issue on this forum. Looking forward to your future input.
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:06 AM
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Smile

If you think this forum chases it's tail on the subject - have a chuckle with this one: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/.../443002/2.html
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Old 08-10-2015, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warefuller View Post
Wow, you guys had a lot to say between 4/15 and 4/19. Don't know why the thread is listed in the 'current' ones on the web site.

But anyway, it is Power, not current (amps) that heats the coil. Power (Watts) is the product of amps x volts.

Furthermore, to get a bit more technical: In operation, it is not a DC system , but an AC system. In an AC system, particularly with an inductive load (the coil), the voltage and current are not in sync - one lags the other. That is why one needs a true RMS power meter to accurately measure power in an AC system. This may not be a big deal. Just shooting my mouth off.


If I remember correctly the freq at which the dist revolves has little effect
on the inductance on the circuit. As the freq increases the inductance increases. I did the calc and its posted.

Steve
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