A-4 (1972) cranks slowly as if batt. is dead

[Shrek]

Hi Folks,
I last used my boat in Aug,2015 and although it has been difficult to start since I bought it in February it does eventually start, but never easily. About 1 month ago I was barely able to start it but eventually got lucky after 1/2 hour trying. This week I have spent hours and hours trying to get it started. At first we thought it was fuel related but the plugs have gas on them. Now even with brand new batteries she will barely turn over with 14v at each battery. I must say that towards the end when things were getting really sluggish, I noticed a sound like you get when you rub your hands together tightly in a circular fashion. The back of the engine has a fair build up of rust around where the starter motor is attached and I am also wondering if the motor itself is now damaged due to all the punishing cranking I have put it through over the last 3 days. The raw water feed has been "off" throughout this process so I am stumped. Clutch issues ? It runs well when running. I just can't get it to start now. Draws the batteries down fast. Any ideas appreciated.

[smosher]

sounds to me that the battery connections are either not tight or has corrosion
at the mating ends. This includes the battery ground to the engine.

Steve

[hanleyclifford]

You may indeed be in the process of trashing the starter but before going any further I would try to find the underlying problem which could be weak spark. There are many reasons for that especially in a seldom used engine. If you have points start by checking the gap and giving them a cleaning with something like 220 sandpaper or a nail file.

[Dave Neptune]

Shrek, first thing I would do is check the voltage at the starter when cranking! If it is low it can be two things. It can be just a plain ole poor or dirty connection or a bad ground "cable". The ground side can in some cases corrode inside, in this case keep your hands on the cable and wiggle it around in short lengths from end to end. If you feel an easy spot to wiggle the wire itself has corroded on the inside, not real common however I have seen it many times in old cables. This scenario sometimes will show some white corrosion where the cable exits the insulating sheath not the corrosion on the connections.

Another thought is the solenoid itself making a weak connection when switched.

If the voltage is good at the starter pull it and get it checked before tearing into much more.
AND for the hard starting LOOK at the choke with the spark arrestor off to be sure it fully closes when trying to start and I do mean fully closed!!! If it is not fully closed it is a simple adjustment.

Dave Neptune

[Shrek]

Thanks all !

Thanks to all for the very quick responses to my first ever posting - Wow, what a great community of new friends. I will post again soon with my results when I get to the bottom of this. Shrek.

[Al Schober]

Shrek,
Hopefully you have a decent multimeter to take these voltage readings.
First voltage I'd check while cranking is the voltage between the battery negative terminal and the engine. This check will show up a bad ground cable or connection. Once this is good, you can start checking the positive terminals while cranking. 12V to the solenoid shows good positive cable and connections. 12V to the starter shows the solenoid closing, but the starter not drawing current. With the starter operating properly, you should see about 8 volts or so at the starter terminal. A low voltage here indicates that current isn't getting through the solenoid. A high voltage indicates that the starter isn't drawing current. Let us know what you find.

[JOHN COOKSON]

You may indeed be in the process of trashing the starter but before going any further I would try to find the underlying problem which could be weak spark. There are many reasons for that especially in a seldom used engine. If you have points start by checking the gap and giving them a cleaning with something like 220 sandpaper or a nail file.

Use short 7-9 second cranking bursts. Wait an equal amount of time between starting tries. This will give the battery a chance to bounce back and the starter motor a chance to cool down a bit.
If you have points buy yourself a points file. Available at your local "boutique" auto parts store for a couple of bucks.

TRUE GRIT

[Shrek]

more thanks and fingers crossed

Going down to check/clean all connections after breakfast this morning.
I'm in Pacific time zone.
Fingers crossed - will post results later in my day, Thanks again all.

[ndutton]

No need to repeat the good advice offered but one thing seems to be overlooked or assumed good: battery condition. Batteries being new doesn't mean they're fully charged. In the first post you reported they were over 14V at each battery, a number that is abnormally high for fully charged batteries and therefore suspect. It implies the battery voltage measurement was made with a battery charger connected making the measurement unrealistic.

The batteries may be fine as you assume, one of the load tests mentioned will determine that for sure. In other words, don't discount low batteries solely on assumption. For good troubleshooting practice they should be assumed not good until the testing confirms otherwise. Nothing is off the table at the onset of troubleshooting.

[Shrek]

Update

Visited the vessel today along with she who must be obeyed, and checked all wires and connections for corrosion and tightness - all seems okay but it still doesn't want to go round and round except very sluggishly, like dead batteries.
Going back down there tomorrow with a friend who is quite conversant in these issues, so we will do some testing with a multi-meter and get some real readings.

After that I have an appointment with the marina mechanics who can determine the problem while I still have some hair left !

Will update the solution for all within the next few days - I promise.

Thanks all for your support.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Hi Folks,
it has been difficult to start since I bought it in February it does eventually start, but never easily. About 1 month ago I was barely able to start it but eventually got lucky after 1/2 hour trying. This week I have spent hours and hours trying to get it started. At first we thought it was fuel related but the plugs have gas on them. Now even with brand new batteries she will barely turn over with 14v at each battery. I must say that towards the end when things were getting really sluggish, I noticed a sound like you get when you rub your hands together tightly in a circular fashion. The back of the engine has a fair build up of rust around where the starter motor is attached and I am also wondering if the motor itself is now damaged due to all the punishing cranking I have put it through over the last 3 days. The raw water feed has been "off" throughout this process so I am stumped. Clutch issues ? It runs well when running. I just can't get it to start now. Draws the batteries down fast. Any ideas appreciated.

Please,please be sure and check to see if the choke is closing all the way. The underline part of your quote above leads me to believe the choke is not closing all the way.
Your hunch on starter motor damage due to excess cranking may be correct.
If the batteries and wiring check out OK the starter motor would be the next suspect.
I'm not trying to be preachy here but in is never a good idea to use the starter motor excessively. If the engine does not start after a reasonable amount of cranking it's time to switch to the diagnostic mode. As you own your A4 longer you will get more and more of a "feel" for it.

TRUE GRIT

[Shrek]

Success !

Well, I tried and tried so hard to get my A4 started, that I killed my starter motor. The longer I tried, the slower it turned and was accompanied by what sounded like metal sliding on metal sounds, kind of like rubbing your hands together whilst pressing them tightly together. It just about fell apart on the shop floor with dead bearings. We really believed it to be dead batteries. WRONG ! After the starter motor was replaced the mechanics at the marina still could not get the thing to fire up. They connected a separate fuel tank with a bulb primer to see if they could force out a blockage but could not budge it.
So they removed the fuel bowl (possibly the fuel pump, mechanical) fuel bowl reported to have no sediment screen inside it and was not too clean inside. I do have a 10 micron water separating filter, ahead of the fuel bowl though.
Anyway, the main culprit seems to have been a blocked jet in the carb which they say was pretty well gummed up. The carb is all cleaned up now.

She fired right up with a little throttle and full choke and runs like a champ.

Can the newer Moyer Marine s/s fuel bowl, sediment, screen, and gasket be fitted to the old fuel bowl housing and using the new bale assembly?

I love my A4 all over again. Seems to rum more quietly now and is about to get either a repair kit or new Oberdorfer FWC pump to deal with a coolant leak down the main shaft of the pump.

Thank again to all who offered advice on this issue.

[sastanley]

Whoa, Shrek! Welcome back!

Glad you got it running again.

Ethanol laced fuel (if that is what is in the tank) can gum up the carb bits in weeks.

Also, in your case, sounds like the starter was on its last legs and could not muster the power to spin the motor fast enough to start either (however, if the carb was clean the starter would not have had to work so hard!)

Ken at Moyer parts can answer the fitment of the moyer S/S fuel bowl, but I think it is designed to fit the OEM pump. I have a mech fuel pump too and really enjoy its simplicity.

Do whatever you can to make sure you give her clean fuel..if you know it will be a while before you run it again, I might make sure that there was no leftover gas in the carb to gum things up..it could be as simple as draining the carb bowl so the carb itself is empty. 1/2" wrench will open the carb drain..be mindful of the fiber gasket/washer when you remove the plug.

[Dave Neptune]

Always good to hear good news.

Dave Neptune

[Jimmy]

Yup - it will fit

"Can the newer Moyer Marine s/s fuel bowl, sediment, screen, and gasket be fitted to the old fuel bowl housing and using the new bale assembly?"

I can say with certainty that it fits perfectly ....and that shiny stainless steel adds just a touch of class to the old beast

Cheers