How long can she run with no water?

[Chase]

Water in oil. Still not sure if it came from over cranking with thru hull open while ice was froze in the exhaust. I have changed the oil twice and got all the water out, started her three times, and ran her for about 15 seconds each. Still have not introduced water into the system yet. How long can I run her with no water safely in order to ensure all the water is out before introducing water for trouble shooting to see if it was the trapped ice, or I have further issues?

[sastanley]

Chase...the real problem is the impeller. From a heating perspective you might have a few minutes...but an impeller running dry for that long may not perform very well in the future (or be ruined).

All just my opinion though..if I have any trouble starting, I close off my thru-hull and it probably takes me 10 seconds to get down the stairs and get it open again once it is running...my impeller is two years old (will likely replace this spring during 'de-winterizing'.)

welcome to the group!

[Baltimore Sailor]

Impellers are more durable than we think.

Back at the beginning of my relationship with the A4, I was running the engine at the dock to recharge the batteries a bit. It had been running about 10-15 minutes when I glanced at the temp gauge and saw it was pegged! No water out the exhaust -- I'd forgotten to open the through hull.

I quickly shut down the engine, but by then the old paper head gasket had burned through, leading to my head removal and gasket replacement. However, the impeller had no damage at all; in fact, I'm still using it three years later because the new ones are short and don't pump as efficiently -- I'm replacing the water pump this offseason for just this reason.

In the end, I'm not suggesting that you should run your engine dry for long periods of time, but only that the impellers are more robust than you might think.

[Laker]

Chase -

Your situation begs the question : How did you get ice in the exhaust system , as in , are you operating an enclosed system with the cooling jackets in the block filled with anti-freeze? And , the weather has warmed up at your locale (?) so you are assured that your exhaust system is now ice free?

Me , I'd open the seacock very soon (less than a minute) after the engine fires. The water is going to blow out of the system pdq or not at all.

In such a cold climate you might want to consider closing the through hull and allowing the engine to run on for 1/2 minute or so prior to shut down to clear the exhaust.

Your situation is interesting. Best of luck.
Laker

[hanleyclifford]

I can appreciate the fact that some boats have difficult access to the raw water thru hull and that it is not easy to operate it within a few seconds of start up. In such cases an additional shut off valve should be installed where ready access is available. Under no circumstances should a wet exhaust system be operated dry for more than a few seconds. There is a danger of damaging the soft components of the system including the collapse of internal wall material in hoses. This is the kind of damage that is not always obvious and can lead to perplexing diagnostic issues.

[Dave Neptune]

Runnin dry!

Chase, what Hanley said. I would like to add one more tidbit, that is the engine will actually IDLE for quite a while dry without doing damage to the soft parts of the exhaust but if you add a load or raise the RPM's replace the soft stuff if you smell rubber burning .
RE the impeller, if the boat is in the water and the impeller is wet it will run for a long time as there is water still in the pump cavity to keep it lubed. If the boat is out of the water and the pump is dry it won't last very long at all!
My start procedure is somewhat unique, I have a remote start switch mounted on the engine so I turn on the ignition with the key and go below to start. When she fires I open the water valve and watch the engine for a couple of minutes to SEE if anything is amiss, when I see all is well I put the cover back on and we're ready to go. I only do this when it has been a week or so since the last use. When I go to the island and need to start I just start her from the cockpit and if it doesn't fire up rapidly I remove the cover and start facing the beastie.
Welcome to the forum.

Dave Neptune

[CalebD]

Chase,
I'm with BS (Baltimore Sailor that is) on this one. You might be surprised at how long you can run your engine without cooling water, especially at or close to idle. One of the issues addressed by the other long time A4 owners is the impeller in the raw water pump which is rubber and requires water (H2O) for lubrication.
Last summer, after only 10 years of owning our boat and 43 y.o. A4 I had closed the raw water intake after some hard starting problems likely related to water/ethanol in the fuel issues. We got the engine going again and motored back to our mooring (perhaps 1 mile or less) at low throttle. Only once we picked up our mooring did I remember that the cooling water valve was closed. As a precaution we opened the raw water valve and idled the engine for several minutes to help carry away some of the heat. Luckily the head gasket did not burn up as in BS's story (knock wood).
I would question how you came to be in this situation in the first place. If I had to guess I would ASSUME that your engine was not winterized when a freeze came through. I have no way of knowing or even guessing if your boat is still in the water or on the hard, dry land. I can only speculate that you never ran any RV anti-freeze (the pink stuff) through your engine in preparation for colder temps. Normal winterization procedures involve running a bunch of fresh water through first and then a gallon or two of 'the pink stuff' until it comes out the exhaust. Running the anti-freeze through the engine as the last step helps insure you wont have ice forming in the engine block or exhaust. Perhaps running a gallon or so into your engine right now might help melt and remove any ice still in your exhaust? If the exhaust is STILL blocked then you could end up with anti-freeze in your oil and cylinders. Another thought is to put a heater in the engine compartment to bring the temp up before turning on the raw water, etc.
By the way, Don Moyer recommends doing 3 sacrificial oil changes once water is found in the oil system. Two is pretty good but the 'sacrificial' part means that all three oil changes are sucked out of the oil pan before putting your regular choice of oil back in. For the 'sacrificial' oil changes you can use any cheaper multi-weight oil (5W-30, 10W-40 etc.) oil. The final oil change which is really a 4th, should find you preferred oil in there (in my case that is Rotella T 30W which costs more then most oils).
Good luck and don't fret. At least your engine still runs and the folks here will set you straight.

[zellerj]

no cooling water can wreck plastic water lift muffler

While no cooling water may not ruin the water pump impeller, I would be worried about fiberglass or plastic water lift mufflers. Without water injected into the hot exhaust, the inlet of these mufflers can melt and deform. This happen to me while winterizing when I naively ran the engine hot water outlet into a 5 gallon bucket to recirculate pink antifreeze. I had an exhaust leak in the spring.

Best,
Jim

[Chase]

Thank you for all the information

First I want to thank every one for the input on running her with no water.
A lot has transpired since then but still not running un fortunately.
After all the input from the forum I went down and ran her for about 2 minutes and she ran just fine. I shut her down and everything seemed normal.
I performed the following maintenance:
Changed the oil.
Cleaned the plugs, and replaced all the water hoses in expectation of a re start and introduction of water.
I then tried to re start her with no luck. With no water. After checking and looking it over, it was obvious that the water stack still had water in it (exhaust). I believe the initial cause of this whole issue was that the water in the stack had frozen and the amount of water it took to flood the cylinders was very small.
At this point I removed the manifold, the water stack, and cleared of all water. The oil was changed and the plugs cleaned.
All should operate normal at this point in my mind.
Now the engine will not start and stay running. I still have not introduced ANY water into the motor. If I introduce gas into the cylinders, or a small amount of starting fluid in the carb, she will start and run as long as the amount of fuel I have given her and thats all. I have removed the fuel line to the carb and fuel is pumping regularly. The fuel pump and bowl are all new along with the racor filter, lines and valve. The engine was running beautifully with the new mechanical pump and filter for over a month.
I have removed the carb and checked the fuel while dis assembly and it shows no signs of water or contamination. The float and all the jets look good and have been cleaned several times. I have delt with fuel shut downs in the past, and usually the engine will run a while before she sucks air and shuts down. In this case she won't even stay running. 15 seconds is the longest so far.
How could I have developed a carb problem after just running her for a couple of minutes?
Any ideas on this one?
I have read some other posts saying to check for raw fuel in the carb but I'm not at the boat at this moment so will check that next time, but the carb/choke, etc was working fine last run.
Electrical shows no break when the engine dies so pretty sure not an issues there.
Compression check is good.
I know....spark, fuel and air and no reason she shouldn't start. I'm at a loss on this one.

[jpian0923]

Still Sounds like fuel starvation. Can you keep her going if you spray starter fluid into flame arrestor? Do you have an adjustable main jet that may have inadvertently been adjusted inward. Back it way out and see if that cures the problem.

You can still run water through her but disconnect water injection into hot section and run it into the bilge and disconnect exhaust to waterlift if melting that is a concern. Just don't hang out below for long while the engine is running...if you get it running.

If you have ice in your exhaust there are exhaust back pressure issues too.

This is dumb but if you cleaned the plugs did you put the plugs wires back on correctly.

[ArtJ]

Caution Spraying starting fluid into the carburetor of a running engine
can be dangerous. Not to mention not good for the engine.You should
never need it .

[Dave Neptune]

Hmmm!

Chase, good "catch"on the frozen water in the eshaust!
Spark is easy to check because you can see it or even feel it by zapping yourself. However you can't see fuel preassure unless you have a F/P gage. The mech. pump only makes about 2 psi as that is all the Zenith requires on the A-4. Your needle and seat could be sticking a bit or the pump may not be pumping when the engine is running. When working the bail, does it take a stroke or two to fill the carb bowl?

It does sound like fuel delivery.

Dave Neptune

[CalebD]

That blows

Have you ever noticed that everything associated with a sailboat either sucks or blows? If the wind is blowing it usually doesn't suck.
I'd guess that exhaust back pressure would make your engine only run for short spurts. If it is cold enough to freeze water in the exhaust riser it is cold enough to freeze water in any part of the exhaust system that would cause a blockage, back pressure and no 'blow'.
Now for the suck portion of my post.
This is a bit of a long shot but if it is cold enough to freeze liquid in your exhaust it is cold enough to cause any water or crud in your fuel tank to crystallize. There could be a frozen obstruction in your fuel line which would mean no 'suck' and limited fuel delivery.
Speaking of sucking, the updraft carburetor float pin can get stuck in the open or closed position. I have been advised that giving the float bowl a few blows or taps with a screw driver handle can free up the pin. Another good trick is to remove the main passage plug which allows the fuel in the carb to drain out. Make sure to catch the fuel in a container and look for water or muck at the bottom. If you find any crud floating under the fuel then that just sucks.

[sastanley]

I just moved about 3 or 4 oz. of fuel thru my carb (using mech. pump lever) as a mid-winter preventative maintenance item. The stuff that came out of the carb bowl does not look much like fuel (so I am glad I did that)!

I have a Racor with 10 hours (~10 gallons?!) of use and the Moyer polishing filter in place....so who knows?..I'd definitely try to flush some fuel thru the system using the mechanical fuel lever and let it run out the bottom of the carb..maybe several ounces.

I second Art...you shouldn't need the starting fluid anymore...it has already diagnosed your current problem as likely fuel related (it will run on ether but won't run otherwise) - let's try to get the fuel system back in order.

[roadnsky]

Caution Spraying starting fluid into the carburetor of a running engine
can be dangerous. Not to mention not good for the engine.You should
never need it .

From the FAQ's:

Starting Fluid
"It is best to never use starting fluid. Moreover, it is virtually never necessary to use starting fluid in an Atomic 4, unless there is something else wrong. If an engine starts hard (requiring starting fluid), but runs fine once it starts, the problem is almost always caused by the choke not closing completely.

In both early and late model engines (especially late models), the spring-loaded popet valve in the choke valve is designed to allow just the right amount of air to be drawn in through the fully closed choke disk itself to provide a quick sure start.

As far as cylinder wall wash is concerned, I think the problem is overstated in the Atomic 4. Due to the updraft carburetor design, it is almost impossible to flood the Atomic 4 (even with gasoline). The whole issue of cylinder wall washing is more relevant to downdraft carburetors, where an overzealous use of starting fluid can result in some of the liquid draining down through the intake manifold and directly into the cylinders. In the case of updraft carburetors however, gasoline or starting fluid would have to be “sucked uphill” approximately 6 inches before entering the cylinders.

The good news here is that even if you end up with fuel or starting fluid puddling in the intake throat of the carburetor, the liquid will vaporize while it is being drawn up through the carburetor and intake manifold, even with the use of full choke"