Elmer SO Lost

[Trumplestiltskin]

I have just acquired a Catalina 30 for 900 bucks. She is a 77 and in pretty good condition, but I am having problems with getting the motor running. She will start using that spray can stuff only and will seize after it burns off. People are telling me to use a fuel additive to burn the condensation out (if there is any) is this wise? Also, there seems to be an alligator clip running between two contact points on the fuel pump? The man responsible for rigging this engine has passed on and his widow though wonderfully sweet knows next to nothing about engines (which is more than I) and does not know what her husband did or has done. I am a mechanically disinclined grad student on a limited budget and I need to get this motor running before memorial day or I will lose ANOTHER golden opportunity in my annual slip for less than 1000 dollars a year. Should I just bite the bullet and buy a new engine (I would have to drop out of school but it would be worth it I love this boat!)? Please help a frazzled elmer learn how an engine works.

[hanleyclifford]

Extra Credit Course

Trumplestiltskin - You have just added a minor to your educational profile (but be advised you could get the bug and it might become your major). Go to the onlne catalog and order the Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Service and Overhaul Manual. This is cram time for you, and in addition you will find a crowd of enthusiasts on this forum eager to help. Welcome and all the best to you! Hanley

[hanleyclifford]

Fuel additive

Generally I do not like fuel additives although ethanol is changing the way we think on this matter, but in your case it is more important to make sure the tank is full of clean fresh fuel. Starting fluid is not a good idea especially for repeated use. It is possible to damage rings and pistons with that stuff. Fuel, spark and compression are the real requirements. It sounds like you have spark and compression - next focus on that clean fresh fuel supply.

[lat 64]

Welcome

Get the boat towed to the new slip to get the good deal on the rent. Then do what the other guys here said. Read first all about fire saftey with gasoline marine engines. There are some conciderations not the same as autos. If you smell gas DON'T start the engine. The coast Gaurd auxillary is awsome for beginers and even know-it-alls like me. They have couses for safely operating marine engines and all the boating in general.

Also, that can of starting fluid is for life or death only it is bad for engines.

You have come to the right place.

Stay tuned and search the archives,

Russ

[rigspelt]

In addition to the good suggestions so far:

• Don't sacrifice an education for a boat. First things first. (Although sometimes first things first leads to old age before a guy gets the boat he wants).
• That alligator clip suggests bypassing the oil pressure safety switch on the fuel pump, if it is an electrical pump. That triggers alarm bells in my mind.
• Think air, fuel, spark, cooling. My guess is that old engine needs some work in all three areas.
• I made up this for myself after I learned about and refitted an old A4:

If engine is not running properly, list all the changes that have been made since the last time it ran well, or all the components that have not had maintenance for some time. Then ponder the list before spending money or time.

1. Spark:
1a. Distributor: position, points/condensor or electronic ignition module.
1b. Coil.
1c. Plugs and plug wires.
1d. Wiring: wires, connections, switches, solenoids, wires, fuses.
1e. Charging: battery, alternator, cables, connections, fuses.

2. Fuel:
1a. Fuel condition.
1b. Tank: condition, pickup tube, vent.
1c. Fuel line: air or fuel leaks, hose or tube condition, connections, filters.
1d. Fuel pump.
1c. Carburetor.

3. Air:
3a. In: air vents, engine space air flow/volume, engine space air seal, spark arrester and carburetor.
3b. Out: manifold, exhaust dry stack, exhaust cooling water injection point, muffler, waterlift function, exhaust hose, transom exhaust tip.

4. Cooling (modify if not antifreeze cooled):
4a. Raw water: intake throughull, hoses and connections, filter, flow detector, water pump/impeller, drive belt, exhaust injection point.
4b. Antifreeze: antifreeze condition and amount, hoses and connections, water pump/impeller, pump drive, heat exchanger, thermostat, bypass valve if one installed, coolant passages in block/head/manifold, coolant drain plugs.

5. General:
5a. Bolts and nuts for tightness.
5c. Fluid leaks.
5d. Combustion chambers: valves, pistons, head, head gasket, studs.
5e. Oil: condition, amount, pressure, passages, pump, drain plugs, pressure adjust valve.
5f. Gauges.
5g. Procedures, such as overcranking with raw water throughull open or closed.
5h. Power train: crankshaft, bearings, transmission, propshaft coupling, propshaft, stuffing box, stern tube, cutless bearing, propellor.

[Trumplestiltskin]

Get the boat towed to the new slip to get the good deal on the rent. Then do what the other guys here said. Read first all about fire saftey with gasoline marine engines. There are some conciderations not the same as autos. If you smell gas DON'T start the engine. The coast Gaurd auxillary is awsome for beginers and even know-it-alls like me. They have couses for safely operating marine engines and all the boating in general.

Also, that can of starting fluid is for life or death only it is bad for engines.

You have come to the right place.

Stay tuned and search the archives,

Russ

unfortunately that is not an option. according to the marina rules the motor must be functional. (gated community in Williamsburg) I just need it to a)start immediately and b)be able to run for like 20 to 30 min for the creek run. Once I have her in the slip then I can take plenty of time on it. 6 days left...

[hanleyclifford]

Do or die

It appears you are in that situation. As I mentoned earlier, the only thing you can do now is get the old fuel out of that boat using any means available, and that includes purging all the way to the carb. You must assume that the fuel is old and partially separated by the "blessing" of ethanol. If a fuel filter/water separator is present, replace the cartridge.

[joec43]

my suggestion

I suggest you put a call out to the local marina for an experienced A-4 person, offer him a feed of shrimp and beer to get the motor running for the half hour trip.
It is probably not that difficult, fresh fuel, from an accessory tank if necessary, a clean (or replacement) carb, new plugs, clean wires, and it will run, unless it is toasted.

I was able to get mine to run with a blown head gasket (water coming in the cylinder) for 20 minutes to get her into the slip in FL, once you have the engine running, shut it off and sail in, turn on the engine just entering the marina.
Good luck!!

[sastanley]

throw away that can of ether..it will cause more problems than it will solve...you've confirmed the engine will run, so get good fuel to it to keep it running...joe has a great idea. To get the engine running & get the boat to the slip, eliminate the old fuel from the equation. Get an outboard tank and put fresh fuel in it, and cut off the fitting & connect it to the fuel pump. Even if this motor needs serious work and runs terribly, these engines don't burn more than about one gallon per hour, so a 3 gallon tank should give you more than 3 hours of run time.

Russ'ssssss comments are also important regarding fuel vapors..make sure the blower works and use it prior to starting, and stick your nose in the bilge and sniff..before you start. That is where the vapors sit (heavier than air) & they will accumulate when you are removing old fuel lines ( make sure you seal the old line) and are connecting new ones. Keep the boat well ventilated and the seat boards open to get rid of fuel vapors. (Throw all the cushions up in the v-berth for now!!!)

I also have a '77 C-30. There should be a fuel shut-off at the top of the tank where the hose is connected...you can get to it by removing the access board under the quarterberth. Regarding the engine, fuel system, etc..I've been there, done that..ask away with any questions. Be careful cranking the motor for too long with the starter...the water pump can back exhaust water into the motor..if you don't get it running in 10-15 seconds of cranking close the thru-hull fitting for the water intake. You can hop down and open it once the motor is running. Hopefully, you don't have the 30 year old "gate" valves in there though..they were a bad design by Catalina and are a problem and need to be addressed right away.

Once you get the boat in the slip, we can sacrifice the squeezy bulb in your outboard tank & hook it up to the main tank to remove the suspected bad fuel.

One more tip - get your camera out and start snapping some pictures...they help immensely when you are a newbie & can answer a lot of questions.

[domagami]

Who is close to this guy?

Is nobody close enough to this guy to help out for an hour? Sounds like it could be a simple fix to get him going - at least to get him into the slip.

Elmer/Trump, you are in good hands here. The ether advice being first and foremost for now. Starting fluid is crack for engines - it seems like a quick fix but never is. And as you discovered, it won't fix the real problem.

Rigspelt is right on (as are the others). For now, I would focus on 1, 2, 3, in his comments. You are as I was years ago, without much of a clue on engines. At that time I got the simple advice of 1, 2, 3.

An engine is just spark, to ignite a mix of air and fuel. For the next few days, don't over-think it beyond that.

- You have the spark because when you used ether it ignited.
- You are missing 2 and/or 3
- Others will scream at me for this, but it's usually the fuel, especially if you bought an old boat. Focus on #2 if time is critical.
- Follow the 'drain it' advice. Get ALL that old fuel out, and clear the line too
- Be daring, and consider taking the carb off (once you get the manual) You probably have junk in the jets, or water, or.... who knows, but probably a bad fuel somewhere between the tank and the throat of the carb.

Before you remove/add ANYTHING - even that alligator clip - start taking photos. (You'll never remember where things were) I have found that things are where they are for a reason (even a bad one) and it's best to try to discover that before just taking things apart.

Post photos fast, we'll help you fast.

This is just to get you to the slip, you'll have to tweak other items in 3, 4, 5 later. And then after that... and then a month after that... and....

... and before you know it you'll be running trouble-free!

[lat 64]

Crack for engines; that is so correct and so funny. first laugh I had today. I am going to use that one.

Too bad I'm so far away, I work for food too. Shrimp and Beer guys!

Good luck,
Russ

[roadnsky]

Remind me about this later!

Hopefully, you don't have the 30 year old "gate" valves in there though..
they were a bad design by Catalina and are a problem and need to be addressed right away.

There's a safe "Work-Around" fix for the old gate-valves!
It'll work until a haul out and the time to replace with a proper thru hull and valve.
I'll save the pics and explanation for later when Trumplestiltskin has reached the goal line of having her in the slip...

[sastanley]

excellent Jerry...now if we can just our newbie to come back with pics!

[CalebD]

(gated community in Williamsburg)

No state mentioned but I'd assume he does not mean Willamsburg Brooklyn, NY but VA.
Anyone in the Norfolk/Williamsburg area of VA?

[marthur]

Since the motor runs on the starting fluid it seems like it would be getting some spark (though maybe not a hot spark) and has some compression. Here are a couple of suggestions:

First, make sure the shutoff valve on the gas tank is open. If it is, you could still have a clogged fuel filter or pickup screen in the tank.

Second, make sure the fuel pump is pumping and gas is making it to the carb. Take off the flame arrester on the carb and look for fuel puddled after 15 to 30 seconds of cranking. The flame arrester is the "grill" on top of the carb.

It has been suggested you have bad fuel. To test / get the motor to run temporarily, use an outboard fuel tank with fresh gas and hook it directly to the fuel pump. An assistant can squeeze the bulb on the tank for an "emergency fuel pump." For the A-4 to die, the fuel would have to be more than just old, it would have to have water or other gunk in it. That is possible.

After this, I would clean the carb. This is a more involved job but by no means impossible for a rookie mechanic. Here are a few pictures I took to help with that job if it is necessary:

Carb Photos

I would also clean your breaker points and change the spark plugs. Use a fine piece of emery paper to clean the contacts and then wipe a piece of cardboard between them to remove any oil / dust.



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