float valve needle?

[sailhog]

Howdy to All:
I decided to do a little preventive maintenance and clean the carb last night. Got it back together and she wouldn't turn over and had gas oozing out of the air intake. My first guess was that the float needle was sticking in the valve, and it appeared to be the case once I took it apart again. The needle wants to stay put in the float valve. Long story short, Cleaning the valve did little in the way of giving the needle a free and easy fit. So I have two questions:

1.) A sticky float valve needle will in fact cause the fuel to ooze out the air intake... correct?

2.) What can I do short of replacing the float valve and needle (I'm all set to sail this weekend, as I'm turning 50, and the weather is perfect!) to solve the sticky needle problem?

Need help with this as soon as you all can get around to it...

[jwmurphy]

Stuck Float Valve

FWIW: As I understand it, the float valve and needle seat assembly controls the flow of fuel into the carburetor, so, I don't see how a stuck needle valve would result in excess fuel in the intake if it's stuck closed.

A while back, I determined that my A4 was shutting down due to fuel starvation resulting from the float valve's 40+ year old "rubber" tipped needle sticking closed in the seat. I ordered a new float valve needle seat assembly form MMI that solve my problem.

[edwardc]

An open float valve will definitely cause fuel to overflow and pool in the intake. Been there, done that (it was caused by a partially flooded float).

But a stuck closed float valve will starve the engine of fuel.

[Dave Neptune]

sailhog, is the needle rubber tipped or solid? If it is solid you may just be able to dress the seal with a pencil sharpener, a wood dowel about the size of a pencil and some lapping or rubbing compound. Sharpen the dowel coat with the compound and "with the dowel between your hands" rub back and forth spinning the dowel against the seat lightly. This often will get things working again.
If it is a rubber (butyl) tip replace both and be done with it.

Dave Neptune

[sailhog]

Thanks, guys. I got the float needle to seat properly by dressing the float valve with a dowel. Got the carb back together again and it's still oozing fuel out the air intake when I try to turn the engine over.

Couple of questions:

What are the possible causes of fuel oozing out like this? I've cleaned the bejezuz out of the carb, and it was working just fine before I decided to clean it.

It doesn't want to turn over even with starting fluid. Is this tell you anything?

Thanks again, fellas...

[sailhog]

Dave,
The needle seems to be rubber tipped. It seems to be seating fine now, meaning, it no longer stays stuck up in the float valve. I'll be ordering a new float valve and needle, but was hoping to get her running today, as the weather is unbelievable right now.... and it's the weekend... Argh....

[Marian Claire]

Are the plugs wet after cranking? Has something caused a air leak, missing carb to manifold casket, incorrectly adjusted choke, that is not allowing the carb to create suction and pull fuel out of the carb???
Just thinking out loud.
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[ndutton]

I think you're trying to solve the opposite of the symptom. The float valve is not closing properly allowing excess fuel into the bowl. If it's sticking, it's sticking open.

I'm sorry to be the one to say it but if the symptom is fuel overflow and risk of spilling over into the bilge, that is about the most dangerous condition you can have on a gasoline fueled boat. Discretion is the better part of valor my friend. Safety first.

edit:
The possibilities are more than just the valve. For example, if the floats have liquid inside (they shouldn't) they won't apply the proper force to the valve to close it properly.

[sailhog]

Neil: I hear you, amigo. I'm keeping the mess cleaned up as I go and keeping the engine compartment and cabin well ventilated.

I'm thinking I may need to adjust the floats so that it closes completely. I'll check and see where they are. Since I haven't adjusted them, I'm puzzled as to why the float valve isn't closing properly.

MC: I'll check the carb-manifold gasket. I have an Indigo PCV unit between the carb and manifold, so I'll check both gaskets.

She doesn't want to turn over when fully choked. Nor does she turn over with starting fluid. No suggestion that she's even thinking about turning over in either case....

Keep the suggestions coming... I turn 50 this week and I'll end up drinking way too much if I can't get out on the boat...

[sailhog]

The plugs are completely dry... Would this indicate a potential air leak?

[ndutton]

Three reasons that come to mind for the needle valve not closing is debris in the valve interface (doubtful considering what you've already done), damaged rubber needle tip or leaky float allowing gas inside.

As for no pop even with starting fluid, time to confirm you have spark to eliminate ignition as a possibility. If you do have spark I recommend removing or plugging the PCV valve until you get this sorted out.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Neil:
I'm thinking I may need to adjust the floats so that it closes completely. I'll check and see where they are. Since I haven't adjusted them, I'm puzzled as to why the float valve isn't closing properly.

Here's a long shot.
Is there a clip that holds the needle to the float in your carb? If there is try eliminating it. It may be causing some sort of misalingment when there is fuel in the float bowl and the floats are floats are working.
If there is no clip then try adding one - it might help the needle move squarely in the seat.
It can get a little tricky because on the bench you are dry testing but when the floats are working when there is fuel in the bowl the geometry could be changing. Did you verify that there is no leak(s) in the float? A leak in a float will most certainly change the "geometry" of the system.
Exactly what PM did you do that you mentioned in post #1? It is not to hard for me to visualize a no start engine with an ill fitting needle valve leaking gas all over the place. Did you do any PM procedure to the ignition?
You are keeping the raw valve closed while trouble shooting?

TRUE GRIT

[sailhog]

John: I was installing a new gasket in the carb as PM. There is no clip on the float. Does Moyer sell one, or is the clip a jury rig deal? I couldn't find one on the site. Definitely keeping the RW valve closed.

I noticed that the idle valve got a little marred when I took it out. The brass on the flathead notch is slightly stripped, but carb cleaner passes through without any visible impediment.

If none of this works, I'll be ordering a the carb rebuild kit and a new float (I'll be doing it it any case). Just trying to get on the water this weekend. I'm turning 50!

Thanks to all!

Dwight

[hanleyclifford]

Another Long Shot

Make sure that the venturi is well seated in the upper casting and that it does not interfere with the gasket so that you get a good seal.

[Marian Claire]

The plugs are completely dry... Would this indicate a potential air leak?

If I understand the carb correctly. If the bowl is overfilling due to one of the many causes mentioned then the fuel can flow thru the main discharge jet and pool in the air intake area. That is one issue.
Why is some fuel not being pulled into the manifold and to the cylinders and at least wetting the plugs. Why will she not fire with starting fluid? To me this points to a loss of "up draft" caused by a major air leak.
Do you have the scavenge tube? If so was it reattached to the manifold? Is it plugged? If not shouldn't some fuel be sucked up and into the cylinders when fuel pools in the air intake area?
Dan S/V Marian Claire