Coil Tests

[dburns]

Luddite

...and having previously read all that I could to become "educated" followed by replacing my old-school points and condenser with Pertronix EI and a ballast resistor as an *improvement* for a short while, now reading this continuing discussion, I've re-installed the breaker plate with points and condenser.

Gap 'em, check the dwell and fine tune 'em, then forget 'em for a while. Visually inspect 'em, check the dwell and adjust or replace annually. Keep extras on board. A monkey can do it with good business card. No coil issues, no ballast resistor required, just run the engine like the energizer bunny it really is designed to be. Ran with points for 9 years and replaced the points/condenser twice over that period with over 900 hours of use. No degree in rocket science required.

If EI/coils invoke this much discussion, review, inspection, disagreement, and mystery, does that tell anyone anything?

And yes, I am now a confirmed Luddite with regard to this matter.

[ndutton]

I can't blame you Del. There are some who simply cannot or will not accept a proven EI ignition installation strategy and do their darnedest to keep confusion going. In some cases they didn't understand voltage drop until it was explained, when it was they argued the standards were outdated and therefore should be reconsidered, they argued against proven laws of physics and made up standards of their own. It's really sad. I've never seen such haranguing after a problem was solved on any other topic on this forum.

One thing cannot be denied: prior to 2011 coil failures after converting to EI were common. Since 2011 the failures disappeared virtually overnight for those who accepted and faithfully followed the EI/coil/current recommendations developed back then. Those who like to keep the discussion 'alive' (I'm being kind) are doing so for other motives in my opinion. There's no other logical explanation I can think of.

As I said, can't blame you for avoiding EI altogether considering the treatment it has received on this forum.

[hanleyclifford]

...and having previously read all that I could to become "educated" followed by replacing my old-school points and condenser with Pertronix EI and a ballast resistor as an *improvement* for a short while, now reading this continuing discussion, I've re-installed the breaker plate with points and condenser.

Gap 'em, check the dwell and fine tune 'em, then forget 'em for a while. Visually inspect 'em, check the dwell and adjust or replace annually. Keep extras on board. A monkey can do it with good business card. No coil issues, no ballast resistor required, just run the engine like the energizer bunny it really is designed to be. Ran with points for 9 years and replaced the points/condenser twice over that period with over 900 hours of use. No degree in rocket science required.

If EI/coils invoke this much discussion, review, inspection, disagreement, and mystery, does that tell anyone anything?

And yes, I am now a confirmed Luddite with regard to this matter.

Good call. Actually there are only two good reasons to go to EI. 1) You want to avoid the trouble of changing and adjusting points, and 2) Your distributor cam is worn to the point that you cannot get correct dwell with decent point gap. On the Atomic 4 there is no performance benefit whatsoever from EI.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Different Strokes For Different Folks

...and having previously read all that I could to become "educated" followed by replacing my old-school points and condenser with Pertronix EI and a ballast resistor as an *improvement* for a short while, now reading this continuing discussion, I've re-installed the breaker plate with points and condenser.

Gap 'em, check the dwell and fine tune 'em, then forget 'em for a while. Visually inspect 'em, check the dwell and adjust or replace annually. Keep extras on board. A monkey can do it with good business card. No coil issues, no ballast resistor required, just run the engine like the energizer bunny it really is designed to be. Ran with points for 9 years and replaced the points/condenser twice over that period with over 900 hours of use. No degree in rocket science required.
If EI/coils invoke this much discussion, review, inspection, disagreement, and mystery, does that tell anyone anything?
And yes, I am now a confirmed Luddite with regard to this matter.

+1
Only I never bothered with the EI.
Many years ago, in my pre forum days, I got information from Moyer about EIs. I was thinking of converting to an EI. The information I received made it to me seem like a black box. I didn't want any part of it.
One of the major reasons I like my A4 is that I understand it and can do my own work on it. I was glad to have a points based ignition system and a carburetor based fuel system when I bought my boat. I've dealt with these systems all my adult life. I had a dwell meter and knew how to use it for example. My first carburetor rebuild was a Holly 4 barrel. After that they have all been easy.
Anyway what seemed like a black box at the time didn't fit in with my thinking. I check my points twice a year, ~ ever 25 hours. Good excuse to fool around on the boat. Plus my engine is reliable. It has never failed to start or run because of ignition problems. Why should I switch to an EI?

TRUE GRIT

[hanleyclifford]

+1
Only I never bothered with the EI.
Many years ago, in my pre forum days, I got information from Moyer about EIs. I was thinking of converting to an EI. The information I received made it to me seem like a black box. I didn't want any part of it.
One of the major reasons I like my A4 is that I understand it and can do my own work on it. I was glad to have a points based ignition system and a carburetor based fuel system when I bought my boat. I've dealt with these systems all my adult life. I had a dwell meter and knew how to use it for example. My first carburetor rebuild was a Holly 4 barrel. After that they have all been easy.
Anyway what seemed like a black box at the time didn't fit in with my thinking. I check my points twice a year, ~ ever 25 hours. Good excuse to fool around on the boat. Plus my engine is reliable. It has never failed to start or run because of ignition problems. Why should I switch to an EI?

TRUE GRIT

That's what I said for 20 years, until my cam was worn down to the nub. BTW, what is your dwell reading, and more importantly, what gap do you set to achieve it?

[joe_db]

I like these threads because I have always been interested in the engineering/physics/science. I do try and reinforce that anyone who just wants their engine to run correctly can go buy a Moyer coil and ignore all the EE pontificating.

I was one of the ones with frequent coil death back in the day. It was very frustrating back then because you would be told EI is the best thing ever, yet your engine keeps dying Speaking of EI, it has more benefits than just lack of maintenance and making up for worn cams. It will keep running in a damp environment that will take out points ignition. The negatives extend to trying to mask issues you should be fixing. I was trying to fire fouled plugs with a damp engine and really needed to figure out why the plugs fouled and where the water was coming from.

EDIT - speaking of EE pontificating, AKAIK cars have long since moved away from the "electronic points" model of EI to CD ignition and also moved pretty much to coil-on-plug to get away from issues with high voltage wires. CD (capacitive discharge) ignition, where the current is mostly off and the plugs are fired when the current goes on in a pulse like the primary circuit of a camera flash obviously do not have the heating issue of high dwell-angle EI. My outboard engine has a wonderful EI system with no moving parts at all and no power source other than a magnet going by it that is almost the perfect system. The only drawback is when the module dies you are going no place until you get another one.

I can't blame you Del. There are some who simply cannot or will not accept a proven EI ignition installation strategy and do their darnedest to keep confusion going. In some cases they didn't understand voltage drop until it was explained, when it was they argued the standards were outdated and therefore should be reconsidered, they argued against proven laws of physics and made up standards of their own. It's really sad. I've never seen such haranguing after a problem was solved on any other topic on this forum.

One thing cannot be denied: prior to 2011 coil failures after converting to EI were common. Since 2011 the failures disappeared virtually overnight for those who accepted and faithfully followed the EI/coil/current recommendations developed back then. Those who like to keep the discussion 'alive' (I'm being kind) are doing so for other motives in my opinion. There's no other logical explanation I can think of.

As I said, can't blame you for avoiding EI altogether considering the treatment it has received on this forum.

[ndutton]

I start having problems when made up standards, ignorance and general Bolshoi makes an appearance just for the sake of argument, the 'water flows uphill' scenario, also when we slog through another 100 posts only to end up right back where we started. Del's reaction (he's not alone) is a product of such discussions.

I'm gonna plant a thanks on his post. He presented an excellent observation of this particular topic on the forum.

[joe_db]

Considering these engines are 1920s era tech, almost nothing about them isn't long long ago settled technology, but we do have fun talking about them

[JOHN COOKSON]

BTW, what is your dwell reading, and more importantly, what gap do you set to achieve it?

If the points are gapped correctly the dwell reading should be to spec. If it is not to spec there is a problem somewhere. The most common cause is a worn rubbing block on the points. A worn distributor cam will have the same effect.

Case history (Despite what I posted earlier about no start)

Rough idle. Then no idle. Then no start. Obviously crud in the carb. Tear down the carb, ream the passages, soak in the goop a few days, ream again, rebuild - my usual drill. Down to the boat. Still no start. To digress, I've rebuilt the carb enough times that I know what I'm doing. I knew right away the problem was not with the fuel system and rebuilding the carb was a mistake.

Anybody want to take a guess? (keep reading)

I knew: 1) There was something amiss with the ignition system 2)The weakest area of a points based ignition system is the points.

Discussion: the mechanic had a functioning dwell meter that died and he never replaced it. For some reason he just went with the point gap setting. After this incident he always checks the dwell with his new dwell meter after servicing the points.

TRUE GRIT




The rubbing block on the points was worn down to nothing. The best way to check for rubbing block wear is to compare the old points to a set of new points.

[hanleyclifford]

"A Worn Distibutor Cam"

Aye, there's the rub . I've never had a (Atomic 4) distributor that yielded specified dwell at specified point gap setting. Guess I keep getting the old stuff. Here's a question for the panel: how come EI lays so much dwell on us? Why couldn't they (whoever they are) make an EI that produced the same dwell as we get from a points set up?

[JOHN COOKSON]

Letting My Mind Wander Here.........

Why couldn't they (whoever they are) make an EI that produced the same dwell as we get from a points set up?

Maybe they are in an "automotive" frame of mind thinking or whatever?????
This idea sort of looses traction because there are such things as 4 cylinder auto engines.
Maybe auto engines are higher reeving which helps with the coil over heating problem?????

TRUE GRIT

[joe_db]

"They" do. IIRC, both Pertronix and Crane Cams make more sophisticated units that reduce dwell at low RPMs and neither Moyer nor Indigo sell them.I have posted before about this and still have no idea why neither company has sourced the better units. I think they also sense when the ignition is on and the engine is stopped and shut down to prevent coil damage. Note that at low-mid RPM settings, the IgnitorII has LESS dwell than points.

•Peak current level is reached just prior to spark, so ignition energy is sustained with less heat build-up, increasing coil and module life.
•Adjusts spark timing over the entire RPM range to compensate for the inherent electronic delay, resulting in more stable timing.
•Senses engine startup and increases dwell time, providing more energy for starting sparks.
•Senses incorrectly wired Ignitor II or a "key left on" condition and shuts down the system protecting the coil and other components from damage.
•Compatible with 12-volt negative ground systems.
•Higher RPM performance is improved when used with the new Flame-Thrower®II super low resistance (0.6 ohms) 45,000 volt coil, however, it is compatible with any induction coil.


The Ignitor II has many of the same great feature that the Ignitor has, but its smarter. Ignitor II units sense the coil current level and use a powerful micro controller to adjust the dwell. Variable dwell helps to maintain peak energy throughout the entire RPM range.

Aye, there's the rub . I've never had a (Atomic 4) distributor that yielded specified dwell at specified point gap setting. Guess I keep getting the old stuff. Here's a question for the panel: how come EI lays so much dwell on us? Why couldn't they (whoever they are) make an EI that produced the same dwell as we get from a points set up?

[hanleyclifford]

I went to the Pertronix site but could not find an Igniter ii for the Atomic 4.

[joe_db]

Here it is, the 91146A:

[hanleyclifford]

In a Racing Catalogue?

Thanks, Joe. Found it in Summit catalogue. Now you got me thinking. This is going to be your fault. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PNX-91146A/