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  #1   IP: 173.177.148.221
Old 08-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Tiree Tiree is offline
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White smokes+gasoline+black spark plugs

I have a 1973 C&C27MkII, and I am a new member located in Montreal, Canada.
I am having very recent problems with my A4: it's suddenly smoking a lot of gray/white smokes, gasoline is ejected by the exhaust, and my new spark plugs are already very black and wet.

During this last weekend, I have checked the compression (which is the same into the four cylinders - 90PSI), changed the spark plugs, checked&adjusted the distribution and the carburetor. And following that, I have completely drain and changed the possibly contaminated gasoline, checked the gas filter, drain the carburetor, cleaned the air filter and completely drain and changed the oil.

At the bottom line, the engine starts very well, and runs properly. But...

It's always smoking a lot of gray/white smokes AND gasoline is ejected by the exhaust pipe AND the brand new spark plugs are already very black and wet.

That being said, the bosun of my yacht club has given to me a white paste used to check if there's any water on the electrode of each spark plug; this paste remains white - the test is negative. That means, if the test is efficient and relevant, there's no water in the combustion chambers, and so, probably no necessity to change the head gasket.

Does anybody have any suggestion? Thanks in advance for any help or info.

Didier
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BYC - Montreal
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiree View Post
...At the bottom line, the engine starts very well, and runs properly. But...

It's always smoking a lot of gray/white smokes AND gasoline is ejected by the exhaust pipe AND the brand new spark plugs are already very black and wet.
Didier-
Welcome to the MMI forum. Hopefully you can find some wisdom here.

Could you please explain a bit more what you mean by "gasoline is ejected by the exhaust pipe"?
Given that you say your A4 is starting and running well, my first impression of reading your symptoms is that your carb only needs a little bit of adjustment.
It appears to be running RICH.
Have you tried turning the idle adjusting screw OUT a half turn at a time yet?
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Give us a little more info and you'll get plenty of opinions...
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:18 PM
Tiree Tiree is offline
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Thx for welcoming.

As the engine is running at idle, I have some fuel coming from the exhaust mixed with water and fumes.
I can clearly see some fuel stains on the surface of the water.

Didier
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:54 PM
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Hmmm.

Ca va Didier,
My first thought was that the carburator mix was too rich with gasoline/petrol as this usually makes the spark plugs dirty quite quickly.
My second thoughts bring me to believe that we may have lost something in translation. Gas/petrol readily evaporates and you can smell it and would not likely see it in liquid form coming out of the exhaust which is hot. Lubricating oil on the other hand would come out and create a sheen or slick of oil that one could see on the waters surface near the exhaust. Can you smell unburned petrol/gas fumes in your exhaust? Or do you just see a shiny slick by your exhaust?
Blue/gray smoke coming out of the exhaust would indicate that the engine is burning some oil. White 'smoke' could be steam.
If the spark plugs quickly foul up with black gunk could indicate that the carburator is too rich but it could also be that the cylinder rings are allowing oil into the combustion chamber which would also give the spark plugs a 'wet' look as well as help foul them quickly.
Your engine is old enough to have piston ring issues. One of the routine maintenance tasks many of us do is to squirt a small amount of Marvel Mystery Oil into our cylinders while the spark plugs are out. This can help to lubricate the valves and piston rings. Marvel Mystery Oil is a very light weight oil (around 5W) that also contains rust inhibitors and smells like spearmint. It is an inexpensive thing to do and seems to help our old A4 engines running. If you can not find it in Montreal it is available from the MMI store.
Another more remote possibility is that your exhaust system has some restriction or blockage in it that allows a back pressure to develop.
I suspect that you are burning some engine oil rather then gasoline/petrol or fuel coming out of your exhaust.
To narrow the focus of discussion it would be helpful to know the answers to these questions:
How long have you owned this boat?
Has the engine always behaved this way? (or since you have owned it.)
Are you sure the ignition wires are all new?
When was the distributor and rotor last changed?
Does your ignition system use 'points' or is it an electronic (newer) system?

You could be spitting petrol/gasoline or fuel out the exhaust if one or more of your cylinders is not firing properly.
Can you smell unburned fuel in the exhaust?

Bon chance et bon soir.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:01 AM
Tiree Tiree is offline
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Many thx for your respective inputs. And I'm trying to do my best with English in dealing with mechanical terms

I do agree with you: the mixture is too rich! And I will try turning the idle adjusting screw out a half turn as suggested by Jerry.

Regarding the fuel stains on the surface of the water. I was wondering if these stains were oil or fuel. With throttle high, the engine is smoking a lot of white smokes and these fumes smell fuel. And as I have changed the fuel of my gas tank, I made a test in dropping a few fuel droplets on the water, and observe if it appears the same things. The test is positive. And these stains evaporate very quickly. I understand that you suspect that this A4 is burning its engine oil. And I think these white smokes could be steam. Therefore I'm a little bit disappointed and anxious.

I was wondering if this black gunk on the spark plugs could be oil. But the unburned fuel can do the same, doesn't it? And as the color of the fumes is not blue, and the liquid which is coming out the exhaust pipe seems to be... unburned fuel..., I assumed that the piston rings are in good condition.

That being said, I will try to squirt a small amount of Marvel Mystery Oil - thx for the advice.

Your comment on my exhaust system is interesting. This was one of my inside conclusion. How can I test and repair such a restriction or blockage?

Relevant info:
-I have bought this C&C27 in 2007
-I did never experienced any mechanical issues with this A4
-I used to prepare the engine for spring and winter service in following the instructions of the user's manual
-these fumes have appeared suddenly 10 days ago after refueling my gas tank (therefore I was immediately thinking about a contaminated fuel - but after having drained and completely changed my gasoline, the engine is always producing these fumes)
-I have an invoice of the previous owner attesting that in 2003, the engine has been removed form the sailboat at Treasure Island (D.C. Marine Ltd), bring to shop, strip down; the block heads have been sent to machine shop, the transmission has been stripped.the wires, the points and the rotor has been replaced in 2003 - I have checked the rotor last weekend, and it is very cleaned. I could changed the wires of course.

I thank you in advance for your time and advices. I hope I will find out a solution very shortly.

Didier
Tiree-C&C27 MkII
BYC-Montreal
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Old 08-21-2010, 04:17 PM
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Gasoline/fumes in exhaust + white smoke

Didier,

I must admit that I am really not sure what could be causing this situation you are experiencing. Most of the people here have owned their A4's longer then I have and had previous hands on mechanical experience on other engines. My experience is limited by comparison.

What seems obvious is that if you are getting unburned fuel in your exhaust then at least one or more cylinder is not firing properly. The culprit might be in the ignition system then. It could be that your spark plug wires are not set up in the correct sequence of firing (1,2,4,3). If the wires are set up as 1,2,3,4 then cylinders 3 & 4 would likely not get a spark at the correct sequence leading to unburned fuel in the exhaust.

Our A4 came to us with an electronic ignition set up so we have no points to fuss with. As I understand it when your ignition uses points then it is important to get the timing sequence set up and aligned properly with the engine. If the timing is off then you may not get all cylinders firing leading to unburned fuel in the exhaust. Unfortunately since I do not have points I can't really advise you on how to set up the timing. I am fairly sure it involves the orientation of the distributor cap. Hopefully others with more knowledge will contribute their thoughts.

Good luck.
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Old 08-21-2010, 07:12 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Talking

If the points and rotor were last changed in 2003, you have definitely gotten the good of them. How about a new distributor cap, rotor, points and condenser? A good tune up is a nice place to start. Set points to correct dwell and confirm timing to TDC.
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Old 08-21-2010, 09:07 PM
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I want to be the crazy guy here. I think it's diesel fuel.

My reasons:
sudden appearance of symptoms,
Smokes white and smells bad when incompletely burned,
will leave a sheen on the water,
Will foul the plugs.

Russ
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Last edited by lat 64; 08-21-2010 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:09 PM
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Not so crazy Russ.

The OP did not indicate messing with the ignition system or carb or anything like that. Yet the symptoms seemed to come up quickly, with no warning.
The OP did indicate cleaning and/or changing the fuel tank AND re-filling the tank recently.
You might be crazy, but it might be crazy like a fox. This weeks 'Boat Talk' non-radio show listener/reader just might be Russ from Alaska.

Didier,
This is an issue worth looking into. Many time a gas dock worker will assume that you have a diesel and fill your tank accordingly - most newer boats do have diesel engines - not gasoline/petrol. Diesel oil would burn incompletely in a petrol/gasoline engine and would also foul the spark plugs quite quickly and explain some of your other symptoms like unburned fuel in your exhaust.
Gasoline/petrol is a much more volatile fuel and should not come out of your exhaust in a liquid form since it travels through the hot section of your exhaust. Diesel fuel is more like an oil by comparison and would be able to condense and dribble out the exhaust in small amounts.

A simple sniff test of your fuel tank should reveal if there is diesel fuel in there or gasoline/petrol. These two fuels do have a very different smell.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:41 PM
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I did not even think diesel would burn in a gas engine. Wow
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:45 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Actually 100 percent diesel would not burn in an A4: but if the tank were topped up to , say achieve a 50/50 mix of gas and diesel.... Russ's hypothesis might just get the prize.
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Old 08-22-2010, 02:30 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Exclamation Nice

Russ, you may have hit the nail on the head. I have seen that mistake more than once and didn't even think about it. Well I was raised in the sixties .

Another note on mixing diesel and gas, it is not uncommon for gasoline to be added to a diesel to resist freezing (jelling) in cold climates. You ever do this Russ? And a diesel will run on straight gasoline however it smells, rattles and doesn't make much power. I had a friend who had to leave an island in the south Pacific and they were out of diesel so he added regular gas and a quart of motor oil to every gallon of gas to lubricate the pump, he ran 250 gallons through his perkins working through the doldrums on the way back to the States. No damage done and he just sold the boat after five more years of use.

Russ a sidebar question, I know you are using the same filter type as me but are you using it as a bypass or full flow?

Dave Neptune
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:27 PM
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Remember guys, I came up with this thesis while napping.

Dave,
Yes, (it's story time)
About 1968 our family drove up to see the sun at midnight about a hundred miles north. We needed some more fuel to get home. We were driving a '67 Mercedes 200D (diesel) No diesel was available, so we put in some gas and a quart of oil. Dad said he thought the engine was a little louder. I wore out that engine in high school ten years later

In 1975 while the family was driving back to Fairbanks from Anchorage during Christmas vacation, We got #2 diesel fuel in our "new" Mercedes 220D (also diesel).It was 75 Deg. below zero at one point on the road. The fuel started gelling and we had to drive at about 15-20 mph to get to a Chevron bulk plant at a barge line terminal in a small river town. Woke up the owner and put a few gallons of premium gasoline in the tank and drove on. It worked. The engine ran for about another ten years of Alaskan abuse.
The old Mercedes owners manual has actual mixing rates for gasoline/petrol and engine oil to serve as emergency fuel.

Dave, right now I just have a glass outboard motor filter until I hook up the new racor

Cheers,
Russ
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"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:57 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Red face Filter!

Russ, I was refering to your oil filter set up.

I also know of a few times when JP-4 was all that was available and you just add motor oil to lube the pump, I'm not sure but I think it was 1 Qt to every 5 gallons. JP-4 is basically diesel fuel with the parafin removed. I refer to turbines as "linear diesels", same functions just no need to lube the pump.

I have been in 25 below celcius and I can't imagine 75F below, you guys are indeed tuff and a bit nuts. Me I'm a wimp for cold, I hate wearing more that a tee-shirt & shorts~~~oh bother!

Dave
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:38 PM
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Tough—no. Nuts—yes.

I don't have an oil filter on my A-4.

1975 was the last time I ever saw -75 F. It gets to -35 t0 -45F at my house and maybe -55 to-60 occasionally in the low spots.
If you want tough winters, try Wisconsin. Midwesterners come here for the winter.

R
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Old 08-22-2010, 07:57 PM
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Smile

Many thx for your comments and suggestions.
You were right...

The gas vendor of my yacht club had made a mistake... He has filled in the club's diesel tank with gasoline, and the gasoline tank with diesel..... I was the first sailboat to refuel just after a complete cleaning of the two tanks of the yacht club. It has been explained to me that all the lines have been cleaned, but my issues have appeared suddenly just after having refueled...
Therefore, without knowing that, I had decided first to drain this apparently contaminated fuel and replace by gasoline coming from a public gas station.

This weekend, I have completely disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the carb. And... Everything's working very well, and back to normal - just very little fumes and just very little stains of oil/gas on the surface of the water. I'm still waiting for the wellknown Marvel Mistery Oil ordered on the Moyer Marine web site. And I'm so happy to get back with an A4 in good condition after such a headache.

I could attend the next weekly regatta on Tuesday ;-)

Next step, I have to fix my slipping clutch on forward gear... winter project! I have already found numerous relevant info on the forum, and very happy to know that you are, all of you, a great source of experiences.

Thanks you'all
Didier
Tiree-C&C27mkII
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:22 PM
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Thumbs up

Now that we know what Russ can come up with while napping, imagine the great ideas that might come out when he's awake! Congrats to you Russ - Regards, Hanley
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:25 PM
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Confirmed and delivered.

Didier,
Thanks for the follow up. It is more rewarding to us all to know the outcome of the problems encountered by various members.
It is still a good idea to have the Marvel Mystery oil for lubing the pistons/cylinders.

And the "Boat Talk" non-radio show contributors award for this thread goes to our good friend up in Alaska: Russ, aka, 'lat 64' for his particular insight and suggesting diesel fuel as the culprit in this instance. Crazy like a fox indeed.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:26 PM
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Personally, I never fill my gas tank at a marina. My tank only holds 15 gallons to begin with, so I fill a 5 gal can once a month or so, add in the MMO and Sta-Bil, and put it into my A4's tank. That keeps me well topped up, and I never have to worry about the quality of the gas at a marina. Plus, the gas station gas is a lot cheaper.

I suppose I'd have to use marina gas if I were cruising, but I'm not, so I don't.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:36 PM
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BS - I do a lot of cruising on the ICW. Each time I refuel I ask the fuel attendant 3 times whether he is handing me the gas or diesel pump. The first response is perfunctory. The second wakes him up. The third pisses him off and he hands me the pump and feels good making me pump my own fuel. Then I squirt a little on my hand and rub my nose with it. Then I fill my tanks. Don't ask how I learned to do this. Regards, Hanley
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:21 AM
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

Yes, Im doing the end zone dance.

Start a new thread Didier, and we'll get your clutch fixed too.
But, you know gang, we could that in our sleep Ha!

Cheers guys,
Russ
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Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:57 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Angry Oops!

Russ, I thught I saw a picture of your engine on another thread with a Fram F-4. I did reply at the time but it must of been someone else. If it was someone else viewing this thread could you shoot me an answer as to wheather you are usin it as a bypass or full flow set up.

Now I know to stay clear of Wisconsin but I may get to Alaska as my niece just got married and is moving there.

Tiree, I think you may owe a beer to the napping guru (Russ)for an excellent dignosis.

Thanx Dave Neptune
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:11 AM
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Excellence

Wow! You guys amaze me...Well done!
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:49 AM
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Russ gets the award for this year's best solution, far and away. What a team.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:18 PM
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Lightbulb Wow!

Wow! Russ, you are like Bullwinkle, you sure pulled a rabbit out of your hat!

Hanley - When I worked at a marina as a kid (the gas pump was only a small part of my duties), I made the 'hand the guy the wrong pump' mistake once - you never make it twice. My only defense was that he pointed directly to the gas pump, even though I'd been instructed to always ask 'gas or diesel'. We pumped about 75 gallons of gasoline into a diesel boat. My 'punishment' was to hand pump the fuel out into a mobile tank and then I think the mixture was returned to the diesel tank..That was when I first learned about mixing some gas with diesel in cold climates. We are in Maryland so don't really have gelling problems with diesel around here, but the marina owner said, "no one will even notice the 75 gallons of gas/diesel mix in this 2,500 gallon (or whatever size) tank of diesel & it may help their boat run better in winter."
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