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Old 09-04-2020, 09:39 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
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New to me, Oasis, 1974 Peason 30, A4 serial no.191902

Will try to keep this first post manageable. My gratitude to everyone on this forum for all of the help you have given and would never know.

On August 5th I bought Oasis after making offers on several other P30's. She was 2 years on the hard and engine had not run during that time.

Now time I start paying content rent here. I have been living in the basement of this forum for months. I used the Atomic 4 information to evaluate other boats pre-offer and now I am applying and learning on the fly for my good old boat.

I have sailed a modest amount, I have never owned a sailboat much less an Atomic 4 aux powered sailboat.

I have spent the past 4 weeks crammed into the starboard foot locker, twisted beneath the sink, and beath the cockpit. The one piece of equipment that Moyer might consider adding to its inventory is some sort of branded knee pads. By far the best purchase I have made this far.

My boat and its A4 were a blank slate. Death, divorce, and estate problems brought her too me in apparently good shape, however, having a blank maintenance history.

I have investigated all engine subsystems to become more competent as a skipper, to keep me and my family safe, and for the pleasure of learning.

Today marked an awesome culmination day and Sunday we will attempt to start the engine for the first time on the hard.

Electrical system. Batteries were gone when I bought her. Found a sail locker etching of battery bank wiring that at one time applied to her. Traced and tested. Have now verified power and have functional blower, starter, fuel pump, ignition through spark plugs. Set up remote starter(funny story about wiring error another post). There literally was not a single segment of this system that was not helped by the forum. Pleasant surprises when determined that prior owner had already upgraded to electronic ignition. (Of course I had already devoured every article I could on point driven ignition for the A4.

Fuel and combustion system. Drained the old fuel, which did not look very old. Replaced filter, will tell you the epic story of my time in Racor fuel filter bowl and check bolt hell. The fuel from the old filter was much more varnishy that the tank fuel. The tank fuel I filtered had mainly old bug parts in it. Explored the nuances of thread sealant more than I care to admit. Fuel pump checked out. Nice surprise that the carburetor had been upgraded with PCV valve upgrade. Oil pressure test for fuel pump worked and successfully jumped for testing psi. Did the MMO treatment twice. Once before I could crank than after I could crank with remote starter. Soaked and cleared flame arrestor, kept pig rag slices in the open choke throat and carb bowl to limit pooling of MMO. COLD tested compression for first time yesterday with open choke and open throttle. Cylinder 1=100psi 2=100psi 3=100psi 4=105psi. Acquainted self with throttle adjustments though intimidated by prospect of slow or fast idle adjust...will cross bridges needing crossing.

Cooling system. Raw water...at first thought fresh water but mistook the muffler for heat exchanger with my newbie eyes. A drain "T" had been installed and I still have not been able to remove the basket filter top which is clear. Bought impeller and wrong o ring(whoops) from Moyer. Changed impeller and discovered that the water pump is upgraded and has thumb screws. Old impeller looked great, still changed. I could not get all paddles of new impeller pointing counter clockwise. I did scuff one old impeller paddle joint slightly. Need to buy removal tool-which is slick. I used wired up alligator clips. Access to pump is medieval. I did not remove drain screws or plate beside bypass valve. I did not yet remove and test thermostat. Plate scaling is minimal, mainly around middle bolt and bottom frame bolt that holds alternator mounting bracket. Some scaling on engine base, no intrusion into critical components. Engine cleanup, priming and painting this winter. Have wire brushed some. There was some residual antifreeze in the system though most drained when I changed impeller. I have limited cranking without coolant to limit exposure of impeller to damage. Muffler and exhaust pipes in great shape. Still very leery about starting dry and not flooding muffler and engine. Mixed confidence with staring and cooling engine on the hard Sunday. Have good plan thanks to forum. Will start dry until ignition then open water bucket access. May dial a friend for some hand holding.

I have studied but not tackled. Transmission function, packing box nut and stern tube, cutlass bearing to propeller. Cutlass and propeller shaft tight, limited play.

Bottom line. All evidence points to a healthy A4 that will run what remains of this season. Will another week or two she should be ready for a month or two on the water. I have learned much with much still to learn. Thankful for the distance I have covered with you this far. Stay well. Tim

p.s.
I have just now seemingly randomly discovered that SMosher a senior member of this group was the owner of Oasis based on posting history from 2006 to 2016. Amazing trove of history to read. I don't know how he figures into the oral history I have from the Marina owner.
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Last edited by TimBSmith; 09-04-2020 at 10:30 PM. Reason: discovery
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:55 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Let us know how the start goes.
One thing I might mention: Have the cooling water bucket as high or higher than the water pump. The pumps on the A4 sometimes have a problem with dead lift.
Best of luck.

ex TRUE GRIT

Do you have the Moyer A4 manual?
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Old 09-06-2020, 12:13 PM
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Good afternoon. Happy LD weekend. Timely post John...Thank you..

At the boat now searching site for max hose run distance from bucket to connecting T. Have empty Rubbermaid trash can below boat now. Will bring up to cockpit deck. Run hoses from there. Nervous about siphon effect above pump think I will use Y hose split diagram I have seen as extra safe vent. Taking my time. No Moyer Manual. Though it on my list too long. Good reminder. Using references here. Will post on startup. Diagram I found. Picture attached. Have all parts. Thankful. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-06-2020, 12:59 PM
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You will be amazed how much water the pump will move especially at high RPMs so keep the hose running in the bucket.
Don't forget to prime the hose.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-07-2020, 01:29 PM
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First Start Update

Good Labor Day to you.

Brief update on my startup experience.

Some success through ultimately unable to run engine. Looks like fuel supply issue.

I dialed a friend with great Atomic 4 knowledge to talk me through startup and trouble shooting.

After confirming/modifying my cooling setup and safety preparation I set full choke and feather of throttle. Kept feed hose out of the water pending engine turning over to protect against muffler overflow/backflow.

On first crank from remote starter engine turned over. Turned off cockpit key after brief 30 second run.

Restarted and placed cooling feed hose in trash cash of water. Engine ran for maybe a couple of minutes. Good suction on cooling and evidence of exhaust and water discharge from stern discharge port. Engine soon stalled.

Adjusted choke to half. Restart failed. Adjusted choke to full, little more throttle feather up, restart failed. Used pig rag strip inserted below open choke value to check for gas near carburetor throat. Found some gas. Plugs all clean. Reminded to pull coolant feed from bucket.

Back to full choke. Cranked, would not turn over. Checked for gas, pig rag strips dry. Theory that initial startup was residual MMO combustion from MMO treatment.

Cranked while spraying carburetor cleaner and engine turned over. Back to half choke and crank, nothing. Full choke and crank nothing. Pig rag strips below open choke value reaching toward throttle throat come back dry both times and every future crank.

Theory engine is not getting fuel. Electronic fuel pump generating 3 to 5 psi. Pulled plugs all good, cylinder 3 plug some light residual carb cleaner? Checked all sparks with inline tester. All plugs getting spark.

Next steps removing bowl drain bolt checking for fuel pooled or dry bowl. Will test fuel pump to confirm fuel flow at pump. May remove carburetor and do a good cleaning (According to PO SMosher post on this list in 2008 carb new from Moyer Aug 2008, so that hope is promising for its condition).

Will search the list for fuel supply issues and carb trouble shooting. Watched Moyer video for start. Welcome thoughts. A lot of work to get to this point, encouraged that we did get short period of good sounding running engine with exhaust and water discharge. Now need to follow the evidence of trouble shooting where it leads and let go of some initial hope that we would be steady running today. Embracing the adventure to become more familiar with carb and fuel system, which was on my list anyhow.

Thankful for this forum. Stay well, Tim
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Old 09-07-2020, 03:22 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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As I recall the boat was on the hard for couple of years. The left over fuel in the boat's tank is suspect.
If you are trying to run off the boat's fuel tank I suggest you run off auxiliary tank directly to the fuel pump until you get the engine's part of the fuel system sorted out ie engine running correctly.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:32 PM
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Old fuel reply

Thank you for post John.

I pumped all old fuel I could out of the gasoline tank recall it amounted to like 12 or 13 gallons. Filtered much of it while moving to EPA disposal storage containers. Found random bug parts, not much else. The color of the fuel tank fuel was much better than I expected (like fresh). I studied old gasoline and carb implications while contemplating the purchase of this and other A4 powered Pearsons. The marina owner also advised removing the old gasoline.

However, when I removed fuel filter I found in the bowl and filter much more varnishy yellow gasoline that evidenced story of last engine run date over a year ago after being on the hard for 2 years. Replaced filter, bowl, bolt. The bolt and bowl story is epic. Pictures of 3 attempts here..solving for seepage, cross threading error, etc...Old and overtight original bowl and bolt..I learned a lot about thread sealant, tapered threading, and on...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h2Tcjtf3PLvgqtkn7

Studied best fuel choice and found range of data for lower 1:6? compression cylinders ultimately I refilled with 5 gallons regular unleaded and appropriate level of seafoam additive.

My friend and engine coach is helping amazingly, and this forum is unbelievable. Found Mike in Maine on a Pearson group site and discovered a selection of posts from him on this forum as well. Thankful for all of the wisdom and range of expertise here. While I am angling to check carb bowl with drain bolt, think I am going to use the carb and fuel pump bleeding method where I can screw a fitting into the check bolt threads, use clear tubing and container, jump the fuel pump for 5 minutes or so a couple of times...see what I get. Maybe pull and look at the valve stem accessible from the drain hole. Before pulling carb and cleaning. I will be back a boat tomorrow hunting for bolt location, I have seen hex head bolt and looks like drain bolt will be found directly below that. Access is tough because of Facet pump. May have to unbolt while keeping pump grounded for flush. Wonder if Facet will run if sideways not vertically mounted?

Thanks again. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-08-2020, 11:48 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Tim, the pump will work on it's side but NOT VERY WELL as it is designed to be up right.
As you stated the fuel was bad and she sat for a while. The needle and seat could be sticky. Drain the carb with the bottom bowl plug replace the plug and try to start. If no start check the bowl again and keep track of the approximate amount of fuel drained. If full or the same try a spritz of "motor crack" (start fluid) and if she starts she has a fuel problem probably the carb now that you have "fresh fuel". If no start time to look to the ignition side for an intermittent spark.

Also give the plugs a good look see for moisture. Any moisture equals a no start and/or run.

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Old 09-08-2020, 04:06 PM
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Dave has good advise here. I would just add that if it were me I would spray a little carb cleaner up thru the bowl plug using a flexible tube on a pressurized can of cleaner. Not sure carb was drained prior to storage. Might help with "sticking" and save you time. Helped me a couple of times.
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Old 09-08-2020, 11:45 PM
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Congratulations on your P30 and hope you enjoy it. I've owned mine for over 20 years and have not been able to justify upgrading to another boat. I find she does all I need and is a good sailing boat. If you have any specific questions, aside from the A4, I'd be happy to share what I know.
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Old 09-08-2020, 11:55 PM
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Tuesday 9/8 Progress. Thank you Dave, Sam, others for posting..

Noted all guidance, was still at boat today for some of it, other read too late to help today. Making part of plan for tomorrow.

Located nut. Access from Pearson 30 port quarter berth with cushion removed left handed, sometimes blindly feeling my way. The bolt and washer were in place and tried many angles and tools of attack.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/o6XRoNJiqJbDTJo97

The tool that worked best is on top of the stack, completely random old wrench that came with a bunk bed we long ago donated. Perfect "L" bend and palm size. Thin cast. What a break.

Before access. The bolt had a little moisture on it, seemed only finger tight. No smell to it. Did not smell like carb cleaner or gas.

My ruminations...to keep the practical physics of all this straight in my head, skip to next procedure if so inclined.
The bowl did contain and release gasoline. I recall from discussions that this is indicative of something...I am going back to my notes/diagram. I have read and had it explained that the carbs job is to release fuel under different fluid/gas(air) pressure flux/gradients. I think the draining fuel (with ignition from both residual MMO and with carb cleaner introduced into throat and with persistence of no evidence of fuel in the throat or base of venturi tube behind choke valve during cranking) indicates that the main jet may not be responding to pressure changes and is not feeding discharge nozzle or other jets.

The float chamber is where all this liquid fuel pools waiting to be atomized into the venturi tube and the ports and jets that are supposed to work together are not getting(as a starting point) fed by this main jet. We know combustion will happen in my engine in the presence of fuel. We have good spark from inline spark test and evidence of combustion pressure and wet exhaust.

Fuels supply system test.

I checked tank, feed, vent. Smelled strong odor of gas at vent. No evidence of gas leakage from feed line to main shutoff valve. From valve to filter. From filter to pump. Pump to carb. Like my motor coach Mike from Maine, I do not like all the tubes supporting the pressure meter for the electric fuel pump. So many places for a leak to develop. Still pump pressure reads 3 to 5 psi reliably.

Fuel Pump Test and Flush

I fashioned a small funnel to some plastic piping at the base of the passage plug. This is what it looks like (best effort at photo). Not what I envisioned, laid out plenty of pig mat.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qUsdR5gXqKrNdeCk6

Ran the blower, opened all cockpit lockers. Attached my oil pressure fail safe jumper clips first, then powered up the cockpit and cabin ignition switch. Allowed pump to run for 5 minutes. The tubing was not useful as the pumped fuel gradually trickled out of the main passage plug outlet. Took the first minute or so to start running. It did not make it to the container. Was soaked up by pig rags. I felt the cold gasoline flow coming from the passage. Very little pressure though definite flow. Pump stayed close to 5 psi. Did not measure volume. Noted that suggestion.

Turned off both ignition keys cockpit first. Undid jumper. Replaced plug bolt again with some effort. Setup for a couple of dry cranks just in case the main jet was cleaned with flush. Engine did not start. Still no evidence of fuel in throat using pig rag strips deep underneath choke valve. Did not remove passage bolt to check chamber pooling fuel. Checked #1 and #4 plugs. Both dry. Ran out of time.

Tomorrow I will check passage for fuel, drain (expected). Spray carb cleaner into main jet and set up to dry crank a couple of times. Probably confirming spark along the way. Even if startup, may pull carb either way and give good cleaning with advice here and from my motor coach.

Open to possibility of further ignition testing (intermittent spark, etc.) will be more confident of those next tests as needed once I know the engine is getting fuel. Based on condition of carb will consider next steps from cleaning, rebuilding(though still very new(2008 MMI replacement new), replacing, etc. I have read that carb cleaning should become an annual maintenance point, and I have read that some skippers run their engines out of gas at each shutdown. I have read that it all starts with fuel quality getting to carb. (Knowing that long periods of disuse without proper preparation present other carb fouling risks). Whatever next steps, will make sure to have good plan for maintenance and service. I like to think this carb will clean up well. That's the first tier plan, however tomorrow goes.

Until next...

Grateful for all posts and support. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-09-2020, 12:42 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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DID YOU CLEAN THE TANK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
I pumped all old fuel I could out of the gasoline tank recall it amounted to like 12 or 13 gallons. Filtered much of it while moving to EPA disposal storage containers. Found random bug parts, not much else. The color of the fuel tank fuel was much better than I expected (like fresh). I studied old gasoline and carb implications while contemplating the purchase of this and other A4 powered Pearsons. The marina owner also advised removing the old gasoline
Remember ethanol has a detergent effect in tanks. Removing the old fuel (with bug parts!!) is a good first step.
If you take on five gallons clean fuel into a dirty tank you will have five gallons of dirty fuel.
If the tank is dirty you are setting yourself for serial carburetor rebuilds. Don't depend on filters to clean up dirty fuel.
I've been down the serial carburetor rebuild road. It ain't no fun. I was ordering carburetor rebuild "kits" two at a time until I figured out what the problem was.* No forum back in those days......

ex TRUE GRIT

*I did get good at rebuilding the carburetor though!
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Old 09-09-2020, 02:07 PM
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Fuel tank cleaning..carb removal....and other run-time fuel system diagnostics

Thank you Dave for post..

Heading to the boat in a few....

Very interested to see how tests today go and newer late model carb removal process. Welcome any guidance on important marking or documentation to do while removing carb that may help with re-install or calibration. May not be an issue...I will photo and video and markup connections as I go. Has been explained and looks pretty manageable and lower risk.

Tank cleaning.

I am following this up. I have read about and like the idea of a tank cleanout rather than relying primarily on the external re-filtering and refilling approach. Though I may refilter with a separate filter and pump to see what comes out. See other ways this may be useful capability to have. Ultimately if I can have a cleaning done without removing the tank that is my preference. Whether I do it or a service does it. It seems like a secondary tank fuel emptying and filtering capability could be useful. Also, for run-time diagnostics seen great and useful notes on having vacuum gauge in front of in-line fuel filter and the alarm sensor panel from Moyer both of which I am adding to my wish list. List of other preventive in-line gauges or fuel testing procedures are especially proven and useful?. Wow...fuel related discussions are manifest on in this forum...

Grateful.

Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-09-2020, 02:20 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
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Reference point for fuel tank cleaning...

https://www.cleanfuelsassociates.com...regularly.html

Collecting some data on onboard fuel tank cleaning. While this firm is in Baltimore out of my geography(Boston). Here is what the rep quoted me for local service.

$300 for service vehicle dispatched to boat
$2 per gallon of gasoline removed from the tank
$90 for technician to agitate tank during pump out.

Their approach for gasoline tanks is to agitate and pump out. No solvents. No polishing.

That is all....except for a parting thought to this post...making a couple of other calls this week. If you are in Boston area and have used a service please share...also checking at Marina on services there and referrals... Has anyone here written about Marina owner relations, so many do it yourselfers on the forum yet I wonder about how to keep the marina ecosystem healthy...read an article about this in practical sailor recently....provoked thoughts about considering how I spend my money for marina supported contractors and keeping that system healthy while being all about right to repair and DIY. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:20 AM
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After 3 years of frustrating fuel problems on my P30 - I grabbed a right angle grinder and cut the wood cradle out. Took the monel fuel tank to a radiator place to be cleaned.
Replaced fuel lines, vent lines, fuel pump, filters
All good. That was 20 years ago.
FWIW: The fuel line was plugged solid
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Old 09-11-2020, 11:59 AM
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P30 fuel tank removal.....

Thank you for this post. Private messaged you earlier before I had read this. Did you document or write up your tank removal process somewhere? Would like to clean in-place, though recognize there may come a day when removal for reconditioning or replacement becomes necessary.

3 years...ouch...End to end replacement and found fuel lines clogged....got it...I have seen where several others have replaced fuel lines....beyond tank cleanout and tank/fuel maintenance/monitoring...I will note and consider fuel line condition monitoring and maintenance point here. Goes on the list...

Still would like to hear from you if you have a preferred in place tank cleaning method. I am exploring agitation methods for the in place as I put together a plan and work the carb angle of the acute problem--and go upstream with a more preventive approach to heading-off chronic fuel issues like so many have mentioned...and most important having confidence in my fuel system while sailing. Steady forward.... Grateful. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:46 PM
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DANG RIGHT

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
and go upstream with a more preventive approach to heading-off chronic fuel issues like so many have mentioned...and most important having confidence in my fuel system while sailing. Steady forward. Tim
Doubts are not a good thing to have when out on the water.
Everybody is a bit different but IMHO but if you have doubts about your boat, engine, crew, sailing ability, and so on it's time to get off the water and sort things out.

ex TRUE GRIT

It's also a good idea to have your anchor gear sorted out in case of emergency.
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Old 09-12-2020, 12:47 PM
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Appreciate posts back and messages.

At the boat last night. First since main jet spray with carb cleaner. (That was a trick to get the can and straw aligned with tunnel bolt hole. In P30 engine space).

Jumped electric pump at oil pressure switch, ran pump 2x for 5 minutes. The gas drained from tunnel about a drip or two per second. Same volume both times, maybe a couple of ounces, is this normal?

First drain was little milkier than second. First drain was after carb cleaner in tunnel overnight, so imagine I got some varnish out?

Replaced tunnel plug bolt. Checked all plugs for spark. Set choke and feather up on throttle. Ran starter twice, no startup.

Removed flame arrester, cranked and sprayed starter fluid, engine turned over. Then replaced flame arrestor, closed choke and feathered throttle. Engine turned over and exhaust and water exited from stern. Let run only 10/20 seconds because not cooled and I was running out of time and sun had gone down. I expect this was residual starter fluid though maybe the vacuum from starter fluid start temporarily cleared main jet and fed carb. Checked all plugs, no sign of fouling or wetness. Today I will try starting again and if start will let run briefly with cooling. Then shut down and remove carb for disassembly and cleaning. Found this(attached) great carb diagram from old Dave N or John C post. Numbered disassembly guide.

Encouraged by further evidence of this being fuel system centered yesterday.
Eager to filter and clean tank and get this carb cleaned and reinstalled, tested. Steady forward.

Grateful. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:45 PM
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Well, first of all your not going to run 10-20 sec on starter fluid. You would expect a couple of cylinders firing indicating "spark". so I think your close to resolving your problem.

Relative to tank cleaning I went thru this whole thought process about 5yrs ago. I have a 1966 Morgan 34 with original engine and monel tank with direct fill from the cockpit. Had some running problems and used a bright inspection light into the tank and was surprised by amount of black gunk on bottom. I had changed a worn black rubber pick up tube years ago with a fixed cooper one which I think added to the problem especially with ethanol marine gas. to "clean" the tank I jury rigged a cheap electric [$20] fuel pump on a board with extended wires and clamps to one of the batteries. I used inexpensive clear plastic gas resistant hoses for inlet and outlet along with $10 glass filter [little white disposable elements are 40 microns]. I moved the inlet hose around thru the fill whole as best I could and even tied to a stiffer old garden hose to maneuver it around even more. I clogged cleaned & changed elements in the filter multiple times and flushed the tank with the old gas a few times and repeated. I did not want the work invoved with pulling the tank nor did I have a cleaning service option. Worked fine ever since and regularly pump out the bottom gallon or so every season. this might help.
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:05 PM
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The carb diagram was from me. Here's couple more if I can get them to attach.







ex TRUE GRIT
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File Type: pdf Zenith_68_Series.pdf (708.8 KB, 10 views)
File Type: pdf Zenith-68-Series-Carbs-Service-Info.pdf (928.0 KB, 10 views)
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Carburetor and fuel cleanup....

Sam and John,

Thanks for timely posts, helps with weekend project... Also got a pleasant early delivery from Moyer. Will post back if/as needed when I am down road further on disassembly and tank filter/clean in place...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
...Jumped electric pump at oil pressure switch, ran pump 2x for 5 minutes. The gas drained from tunnel about a drip or two per second. Same volume both times, maybe a couple of ounces, is this normal? ...
I would say no, not normal. With the carb drain plug out, the float bowl should be empty, causing the float neeedle valve to be wide open. The bowl holds about a cup of fuel when full, and I've found that the electric pump can fill it within 15 sec. This works out to at least a quart a minute that should be coming out of that drain hole. Either your float valve is not fully releasing, there is an obstruction between the fuel inlet fitting and the float valve, or your pump is not putting out the volume it should be.

Remember, pressure is not the same thing as volume. Test your fuel pump volume by removing the fuel line from the carb and putting it into an empty gas can. Energize the pump and run it for a timed minute and see how much gas you get in the can. It should be a substatnial amount, not a few ounces. If the pump fails, that's the problem. If the pump passes, the problem's in the carb, and it will need to come off to clean it by passing a fine wire through each and every passage (just spraying carb cleaner won't cut it).

If the pump is the problem, and you have a Facet brand pump, I've had repeated problems with the pump's internal check valve ball getting stuck and restricting the pump's output volume. The test and temp fix is easy.

Place a wrench (I believe it's 7/8") on the nut shaped boss on the bottom of the pump and use it to release the bayonet twist-off bottom. Have something handy to catch the small amount of fuel that will come out. The check valve ball is reachable with a finger tip. Gently press it. It should move smoothly against a spring. If it doesn't, press harder. It will break free with an audible and palpable "click" and then move smoothly. This will temporarily fix the problem, but it WILL stick again if left unused for a while. The only long term fix is to replace the pump.
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Fuel and carb trouble shooting follow-up...

Hi Ed,

Was just doing research...following and messaged you on your old thread on floats...now I find this post...believe I am on right track and this gives me containment all the way around bowl drip mystery. When I removed the carb today and started disassembly it had a lot of fuel sloshing around in it. The floats don't seem to have any leaks, yet there is strange wear on one of them. Unclear if/how related to lack of fuel being transited from bowl to venturi or the slow drip at main tunnel bolt hole during pump/carb testing.

Worth slowing down to address each element..curious float evidence first...I have an album of photos from last 2 days carb removal and disassembly visits..disassembly almost complete.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6hEzNuvpMshSYB4U6
NO need to review these I will link specific pictures as needed.


I would say no, not normal. With the carb drain plug out, the float bowl should be empty, causing the float neeedle valve to be wide open. The bowl holds about a cup of fuel when full, and I've found that the electric pump can fill it within 15 sec. This works out to at least a quart a minute that should be coming out of that drain hole. Either your float valve is not fully releasing, there is an obstruction between the fuel inlet fitting and the float valve, or your pump is not putting out the volume it should be.

The specifics on bowl volume are extremely helpful, also excellent help from a commenter on my Pearson group who described stream flow characteristics, very helpful. Float valve, fuel inlet, pump volume understand for isolating focus. Continuing to clean carb and tank regardless.
Float continuation...There is a strange wear patter on the bottom of my left float. Welcome and diagnostic value you or team can add. https://photos.app.goo.gl/cjVWkgeejuostNvw8 The float is contacting the bowl enough to rub a mark on it see picture https://photos.app.goo.gl/agThqGoAknSAhesDA


Remember, pressure is not the same thing as volume. Test your fuel pump volume by removing the fuel line from the carb and putting it into an empty gas can. Energize the pump and run it for a timed minute and see how much gas you get in the can. It should be a substatnial amount, not a few ounces. If the pump fails, that's the problem. If the pump passes, the problem's in the carb, and it will need to come off to clean it by passing a fine wire through each and every passage (just spraying carb cleaner won't cut it).

I will do this at the boat tomorrow. Have not been satisfied with bolt hole flow as test for carb and pump and you just sealed it with the pressure/volume comment. No pun intended. Needed that.

If the pump is the problem, and you have a Facet brand pump, I've had repeated problems with the pump's internal check valve ball getting stuck and restricting the pump's output volume. The test and temp fix is easy.

Noted. I have a Facet will keep this in mind after volume test tomorrow. Will attempt check ball quick fix and retest. And reminder that I need a backup pump anyway as part of my contingency kit.

Place a wrench (I believe it's 7/8") on the nut shaped boss on the bottom of the pump and use it to release the bayonet twist-off bottom. Have something handy to catch the small amount of fuel that will come out. The check valve ball is reachable with a finger tip. Gently press it. It should move smoothly against a spring. If it doesn't, press harder. It will break free with an audible and palpable "click" and then move smoothly. This will temporarily fix the problem, but it WILL stick again if left unused for a while. The only long term fix is to replace the pump.

Understood. Excellent. I will post back after isolating pump volume, cleaning, reassembling, and reinstalling carb, cleaning fuel tank. Found out also, I did not test float valve/throat leak by loading carb with fuel 3 min using pump with channel bolt in. Understand that is a test I could have run before disassembly. Though if pump volume too low this might result in false positive pass. So pump volume test first anyway. Noted for future. Thankful. Stay well. Tim
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Last edited by TimBSmith; 09-14-2020 at 12:02 AM. Reason: clarity.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:13 PM
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Progress Update Fuel Tank Cleaning, Carburetor Maintenance

Well overdue to post an update here. Many thanks to all who have assisted including Ken at MMI as I was reassembling carburetor this past Friday afternoon. These notes are for and from a complete newbie. If you are more experience you may find them a bit tedious.

Fuel pump volume testing- positive results.
30 seconds of fuel pump glory..second run link below...moment of panic when fuel was overshooting container.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ck9uEY1xGdHW4ZBt9

Pump volume from 2 X15 +- second runs.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/USny1XvZmexenZLS7

Fuel Tank Cleaning
About a week ago I added 2 cans of Berryman's Fuel System Cleaner to 5 gallons of new regular gasoline(hunting for ZERO alchohol) in my tank.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/if8mn6fJo3f5KAQB6

I wanted to know what is hidden in my fuel tank and based on information decide if I needed to do more aggressive tank cleaning..
I have learned that garbage in garbage out applies to the fuel system. Over a couple of days fabricated a transfer pump and filter system combining ideas I have seen described here and elsewhere. This, to allow me to have a window into that condition of fuel after soaking and agitating. A lot of commenters bought very inexpensive fuel pumps for their setup. I decided to buy a midrange pump with a fine filter and I added a gross particle filter. Here is my external fuel filtering setup.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zh9aKgb2aGXEv8gdA

Here is the system in action today after I figured out that, and how, to prime it. BTW. It is toggle switch controlled. And I have imagined a couple of uses for it beyond fuel inspection.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nw39vgpHtwpKyYsV8

All fuel passing through the system looked clean and first stage filter stayed clean and clear. (I don't know the micron level of stage I or stage II filters).

I use the long pvc pipe to reach the absolute bottom of my Monel tank. I rubbed it with pressure on the tank bottom so that I could to see if anything was coating the bottom of my tank. (No build-up found). A narrow sample yet useful. I emptied the tank completely.

Now I know that I have:
1) Clean fuel after the Berryman concentrate soak and agitation.
2) No evidence of tank slime, sand, water or other contamination in my tank.
3) A great baseline for aggressive fuel quality management.

Carburetor Removal, Disassembly, Maintenance, and Reassembly

I am grateful for all the help I had with this effort. It was the right thing to do and will pay dividends beyond this episodic need.

Removal and Disassembly
I have a comprehensive set of carburetor project pictures accumulating in this folder.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6hEzNuvpMshSYB4U6

I will focus on a few lessons learned during removal. I did not have the MMI manual until after my carb was removed.

1) The choke cable pressure bolt is very soft. I nearly split it's head. I won't even attempt with screwdriver in the future just go directly to my 1/4 hand tool and needle nose pliers. I found leaving the released choke cable in place and holding it as the last part to slide the dropped carburetor over helped to keep some tension supporting the carb and solve the puzzle of cable removal.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4axkZF1Yq1tJLA18
I noticed that the choke cable stablizer was completely disconnnected from the cable housing.

2) I attempted to gauge and register choke cable fixation point. I would like to have known which components need registration points and which don't. I did find comfort just taking time along the way for registration, not really knowing if it would be useful. This choke cable registration was not especially useful. : )
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4axkZF1Yq1tJLA18

3) I have had these mini 3" long box wrenches taking up space...not paying their way. Then this beauty helped with the overflow tub fitting. I found taking off the manifold side first and the carb side after remove helpful. Again very soft copper and brass. Time and again patience finding or acquiring the right tool helped me avoid damaging serviceable components.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4axkZF1Yq1tJLA18

4) Dropping the carb from its manifold bolts. The amount of fuel that leaked out of the carburetor was surprising. Cannot say enough about draping plenty of pig mat.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5qYUMX1JPYdQUXf49
Notice how the released choke cable is helping to tension the dropped carb in place. This was accidental, and appreciated.

I inspected everything as I disassembled the carb. I used carb cleaner and occasionally a soft nylon bristle brush as I went.

Here are highlights of my findings and some of the maintenance steps taken.

1) Left side float making contact and rubbing with dry float bowl...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7EyAEDPnNfWSxwe16
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RJdqLhbC3JmgFneY9
It sure looks like the float was vibrating against a dry bowl often, especially on the left side. Seems recent given that the flaky finish is still holding onto float. Cleaned. Tested floats in hot water, no leaks. Tiny fleck of loose metal could be heard in float. Checked level of floats while resting on float needle. Balanced and level.

2) Well Vent Jet had dried material and build up around bottom opening. Generous cleaner spraying and delicate single brass brush wire with needle nose plier cleaning.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FCVaK8jrBg2P2kK9A

3) Main Jet unremarkable (except that washer did not want to release from housing. https://photos.app.goo.gl/MJrYQrxCFmDBMxrh9

4) Idle Jet was covered with buildup around edges, nearly ruined by me, required tool modification using Don's video guidance.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8deKfYM1sM6Wyo2R6
Jet cleaned up nicely.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XSnXbJrr4n45U9Dw9

5) Float Valve looked pretty good. The float valve removal required discovering a better tool, I scuffed the valve top once. I needed something flat and at least 1/2" in width. Here is what I found.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fNpsAt5Worr8TbmP8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VmxNPQ9GTVZhGtLf6

The Float Needle was caked in yellow grime.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gESLNUoX1j837TFg6
Cleaned up well. Though I kept as spare, replacing with maintenance kit new valve and needle.

6) The Main Nozzle was almost completely blocked. In fact, I didn't even know it had 3 tiny feed holes until spraying several times.
Before
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WPpN1S9WzXVBnZWR8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hbvK7Ez98Yf63Ar98

After
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dsThoZkg9Aiu3dTz7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aSHm7sS5KhNNTo3Q8

7) Given the lack of fuel to the engine and the slow dripping flow from the Main Passage tunnel and bolt hole during testing....I paid a lot of attention to the Fuel Inlet and passage through to the Float Valve. It was hard to see buildup in the passages yet there was evidence of some buildup simply looking at the pin from the float valve. Lots of carb cleaner sprayed all directions.

8) Gaskets and ethanol varnish. The gasket around the Vent Vent Jet and Main Nozzle stuck the most during removal. Gasket cleaning was done with razor blade, plastic scraper, nylon bristle brush, and a couple of soaks with Permatex Gasket Remover. Best results letting permatex soak for 45 minutes.
Before
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oEcSEkt18dv6u34o7

Final result.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LqMj31GWTnicCoKp7

Finally it was time to do the last cleaning step. I looked into chemical dips, soda blasting, and vapor honing. I went with a chemical dip recommended by several folks who were multiple carb rebuild offenders, Berryman's Chem Dip(accepted that the new formulation is not as potent). Dipped all components except the float for 45minutes. I dipped the upper housing twice.

I think I had the carb clean enough from my hand work to reassemble. That said, thought/advised that a final chemical or mechanical cleaning step would give me even more insurance that the carb and components were in great shape for reassembly and functioning.

I will leave reassembly and reinstall post for another time. I am going to back to a startup test tomorrow.

Welcome any pointers and comments. I will report on startup test tomorrow along with reassembly and reinstall newbie notes.

Grateful. Stay well. Tim
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:05 PM
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Brief video of my engine running today...

Great results today.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GyDu4Hk1cM6XAr28A

Thankful to everyone here and on my Pearson group that has pitched in to support me to this point in my A4 shakedown efforts.. Excited about next steps..

More to follow.

Stay well, Tim
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