need expert advice with A4 install/drive shaft coupling and alignment issues

[Dave Neptune]

Fwiw

Dan, I did do an R7R of my entire log and shaft while it the water. It really was not that big of a deal!! I do have a bit of room to work in a not to crowded space.
First I got all of the parts on hand and at the ready. Then I loosened everything that need to be loose and then re-tightened slightly to avoid to much leakage. Once ready I slid my shaft aft far enough that I could slide the coupling off and secured it in place with a hose clamp on both sides of the strut. Once I slid the old one off I stuffed a couple of rags into the gap and zip tied them in place so I could be sure I got hose clamping area cleaned of for a good seal. Then I just slid on the new hose and then the log. During the process I got less than a gallon of water in the bilge.

I did this on a friends boat too by pulling the shaft and inserting a short plug into the log. This kept the water out and then we just pulled it and had the new one at the ready. Once installed we just slid the shaft back in an that knocked out the plug. Didn't even set off the bilge pump!!

Dave Neptune

[DanManSanDiego]

Dan, sumthin' not right. There is no variation in engine length or mounting holes in A-4's. Can you provide a picture of the mounts in their current position? Any pictures available of the old engine and its mounts for comparison?

My next comment takes into account you admit to being a newbie and is not intended to beat you up or insult but the coupler, shaft and stuffing box are a fright. Please say there are plans to replace these components in the very near future.

Finally in the third picture it appears the clamps have been loosened and/or relocated or perhaps double clamping has been removed. Any failure of those connections left unattended will surely sink the boat. Please be sure those clamps are secure and the double clamps are replaced.

Neil, all:
thanks for the sage advice. This mystery is closer to being solved but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight. Ours is definitely a cautionary tale--and it's certainly been a major and expensive learning experience.

Ok, so here's what we now know. Our old Atomic 4 was apparently bastardized to fit a 1971 Catalina 27 that was originally equipped with an outboard only. The oil pan had extra holes drilled to accomodate the shorter mounting dimension of the existing stringers/mounting surface installed on the Catalina (but for what purpose or what engine I don't know). As noted before, the aft mounting bolts are sheared off.

My co-owner Tom and I were at the boat today with a knowledgeable marine mechanic with a can-do attitude. He basically said no can do--certainly not in the water and maybe not even on the hard. His emphatic point was that the key to a healthy drive train is getting the engine and coupling exactly matched up--which requires the ability to adjust the engine in multiple dimensions across four mounting points. We currently have only two mounting points--and they've been bastardized to make an A4 fit.

We also obviously have to fix and or replace the coupling and stuffing box and should definitely verify integrity of shaft at same time--not something we could do without hauling. Then, assuming we get that in pristine condition, we'd have to marry it up exactly to a new engine going in the boat that was not originally designed to go in this boat. We'd definitely have to extend the stringers and install mounting hardware to accomodate mounting the A4 and we'd either have to reuse the old modified oil pan or completely modify our mounting arrangement. And we'd be doing all this not knowing if it would all work in the end--and in the meantime the clock is running and cash register is going KaCHING!

So, we're facing some tough decisions. The first decision is easy. That nice late model A4 that we wrestled in using our boom for hoist--we've got to take it out again. It's certainly not going into the boat in the current condition of things. We'll get it out and set it up in Tom's garage and fire it up--and maybe sell it to recoup at least some of our expense. It's the next decisions that are tougher--and frankly have to be made on a cold financial cost/benefit analysis. Any advice is again appreciated. At this point we're seriously considering selling or otherwise disposing of the boat as is with full disclosure to a future owner of repairs that must be made. Have also considered just going to an outboard (as this Cat 27 was originally intended). However, that same previous owner apparently glassed over the transom cutout in the back. We'd have to customize some new cutout or something to accommodate an outboard and/or install remote controls. Again--KaChing!

I'm posting some additional pictures (hopefully smaller this time) for review-another pic of the interior space with the coupling and stuffing box nightmare, the stringer on one side with the mounting bolt and same pic with a measuring tape--and the modified oil pan with the additional holes.

Again, thank you all for the time and wisdom. And don't worry about hurting any feelings here. My hindsight is good and getting better, but hard news is best delivered straight.

[ndutton]

Sorry to hear the story but it raises another few questions in my mind:

1. Can you post some detailed pictures of the transom repair? Inside and out? If it was done by the same entity that installed the engine there HAS to be some evidence.

2. Have you considered mounting an outboard on a retractable bracket? The typical size for C-27's was 9.9 HP long shaft.

and the biggie,
3. Did you get a survey when you bought the boat?

[roadnsky]

I wouldn't be so quick to give up just yet...

If you're willing to haul out and re-do the shaft; why not go the distance
and re-bed the engine room with stringers for the engine mounts too?
Now, I know it's easy for me sitting in the comfort of my cockpit drinking a cold one to spend your money...
but with some investment you could have a very nice aux setup on a solid sailing vessel.
I can see where Neil is headed with the outboard, which is also a solid possibility.
Don't discount that either (although I personally would prefer the inboard A4)

My point here is, don't be discouraged and give up too soon.

How is the rest of the vessel? Is she sound with some good sails?
Any other major work needed?

[Mo]

You are not the only one.

Neil, all:
thanks for the sage advice. This mystery is closer to being solved but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight. Ours is definitely a cautionary tale--and it's certainly been a major and expensive learning experience.

Ok, so here's what we now know. Our old Atomic 4 was apparently bastardized to fit a 1971 Catalina 27 that was originally equipped with an outboard only. The oil pan had extra holes drilled to accomodate the shorter mounting dimension of the existing stringers/mounting surface installed on the Catalina (but for what purpose or what engine I don't know). As noted before, the aft mounting bolts are sheared off.

My co-owner Tom and I were at the boat today with a knowledgeable marine mechanic with a can-do attitude. He basically said no can do--certainly not in the water and maybe not even on the hard. His emphatic point was that the key to a healthy drive train is getting the engine and coupling exactly matched up--which requires the ability to adjust the engine in multiple dimensions across four mounting points. We currently have only two mounting points--and they've been bastardized to make an A4 fit.

We also obviously have to fix and or replace the coupling and stuffing box and should definitely verify integrity of shaft at same time--not something we could do without hauling. Then, assuming we get that in pristine condition, we'd have to marry it up exactly to a new engine going in the boat that was not originally designed to go in this boat. We'd definitely have to extend the stringers and install mounting hardware to accomodate mounting the A4 and we'd either have to reuse the old modified oil pan or completely modify our mounting arrangement. And we'd be doing all this not knowing if it would all work in the end--and in the meantime the clock is running and cash register is going KaCHING!

So, we're facing some tough decisions. The first decision is easy. That nice late model A4 that we wrestled in using our boom for hoist--we've got to take it out again. It's certainly not going into the boat in the current condition of things. We'll get it out and set it up in Tom's garage and fire it up--and maybe sell it to recoup at least some of our expense. It's the next decisions that are tougher--and frankly have to be made on a cold financial cost/benefit analysis. Any advice is again appreciated. At this point we're seriously considering selling or otherwise disposing of the boat as is with full disclosure to a future owner of repairs that must be made. Have also considered just going to an outboard (as this Cat 27 was originally intended). However, that same previous owner apparently glassed over the transom cutout in the back. We'd have to customize some new cutout or something to accommodate an outboard and/or install remote controls. Again--KaChing!

I'm posting some additional pictures (hopefully smaller this time) for review-another pic of the interior space with the coupling and stuffing box nightmare, the stringer on one side with the mounting bolt and same pic with a measuring tape--and the modified oil pan with the additional holes.

Again, thank you all for the time and wisdom. And don't worry about hurting any feelings here. My hindsight is good and getting better, but hard news is best delivered straight.

One of my friends at the yacht club also has had to make a hard decision this week. Yanmar diesel in a Cat 27, rebuilt 2 yrs ago to the tune of about 3k and it gave up the ghost again a week or so ago as he and his wife were returning home from there summer excursion.

He's an aircraft mechanic and no stranger to hard work or engines but he'd had enough. Spent about a week trying to figure out what was going on with it and decided to remove and put on a 9.9 to keep the boat usable while he worked on engine. Talked to him about that engine over a beer today at the club and here's what he did.
-put on transome engine mount
-put on 9.9 long shaft with hand controls...he mounted those hand controls just behind the binnacle on his dingy engine bracket...it looks fine. This was borrowed from a friend of ours that bought a Capri 25. The 9.9 came with the Capri and Greg felt it was too large and put his smaller one on. So Jim ended up with a good engine and controls second hand. He just may buy it from Greg.
-removed the diesel.

He did all this over the weekend and can shift etc while still at the helm. Says the 9.9 will push the boat at 5.5 with hardly any throttle...something his diesel had trouble doing. Sunday afternoon was raining and windy here and he says the 9.9 did a better job pushing the boat than his small diesel did. He pulled the diesel engine and brought it home and said if he can fix it himself, find parts etc without too much expense he will consider putting it back in...but he is indeed very happy with the outboard 9.9 and just might keep it on there.

[DanManSanDiego]

Sorry to hear the story but it raises another few questions in my mind:

1. Can you post some detailed pictures of the transom repair? Inside and out? If it was done by the same entity that installed the engine there HAS to be some evidence.

2. Have you considered mounting an outboard on a retractable bracket? The typical size for C-27's was 9.9 HP long shaft.

and the biggie,
3. Did you get a survey when you bought the boat?

The aft locker has a plywood backplate about where the transom would have been, and we do have a retractable bracket where we've mounted a small electric trolling motor for emergency backup. Don't know if it would be strong enough without reinforcement for the weight of a 9.9 four stroke. If we opened a transom area and reglassed, we could replace and or reinforce then.

We did get a survey and while other concerns were addressed no mention nor pictures of the drive coupling, stuffing box and such. However, that survey was December, 2008. Afraid we're past any recourse there. the boat was assessed overall as "fair" and seaworthy.

[DanManSanDiego]

I wouldn't be so quick to give up just yet...

If you're willing to haul out and re-do the shaft; why not go the distance
and re-bed the engine room with stringers for the engine mounts too?
Now, I know it's easy for me sitting in the comfort of my cockpit drinking a cold one to spend your money...
but with some investment you could have a very nice aux setup on a solid sailing vessel.
I can see where Neil is headed with the outboard, which is also a solid possibility.
Don't discount that either (although I personally would prefer the inboard A4)

My point here is, don't be discouraged and give up too soon.

How is the rest of the vessel? Is she sound with some good sails?
Any other major work needed?

Thanks for the encouragement--we'll assess costs for our options and make a decision after we get the engine back out. Our boat is no nautical showpiece and our sails are adequate but not great. We need and were planning some fixes including new top paint and varnish, and looking at putting on a rear pulpit and a roller furling for the jib. Bottom paint is still good, but may not be if we're in dry dock any period of time.

[DanManSanDiego]

One of my friends at the yacht club also has had to make a hard decision this week. Yanmar diesel in a Cat 27, rebuilt 2 yrs ago to the tune of about 3k and it gave up the ghost again a week or so ago as he and his wife were returning home from there summer excursion.

He's an aircraft mechanic and no stranger to hard work or engines but he'd had enough. Spent about a week trying to figure out what was going on with it and decided to remove and put on a 9.9 to keep the boat usable while he worked on engine. Talked to him about that engine over a beer today at the club and here's what he did.
-put on transome engine mount
-put on 9.9 long shaft with hand controls...he mounted those hand controls just behind the binnacle on his dingy engine bracket...it looks fine. This was borrowed from a friend of ours that bought a Capri 25. The 9.9 came with the Capri and Greg felt it was too large and put his smaller one on. So Jim ended up with a good engine and controls second hand. He just may buy it from Greg.
-removed the diesel.

He did all this over the weekend and can shift etc while still at the helm. Says the 9.9 will push the boat at 5.5 with hardly any throttle...something his diesel had trouble doing. Sunday afternoon was raining and windy here and he says the 9.9 did a better job pushing the boat than his small diesel did. He pulled the diesel engine and brought it home and said if he can fix it himself, find parts etc without too much expense he will consider putting it back in...but he is indeed very happy with the outboard 9.9 and just might keep it on there.

Mo, that's an option we'll look at, however I think we'd have to cut out a transom area in order to have any access to the engine. Not sure how that would all work for starting, steering, etc.

[Mo]

Mo, that's an option we'll look at, however I think we'd have to cut out a transom area in order to have any access to the engine. Not sure how that would all work for starting, steering, etc.

I'll snap a pic of Jims boat for you today and show you what he did. One thing is for sure...you leave the engine fixed in one straight forward position and don't use it to steer...the rudder steers the boat. I've had an outboard on my first sailboat and it was just a tad tricky backing up with the fixed position...once you are used to it there is nothing to it. You just need throttle and gear shifting close by for the engine....and steer the boat.

[edwardc]

Thanks, all for the helpful advice so far. Let me try to summarize a few answers--and give a bit more information. Re the engine mounting and Ed's question, the engine has mounted directly into the support structure (stringers?) with no added hardware. How would that hardware function anyway? ...

Sorry for the late response. I was away on a camping trip over the long weekend, and Internet access was poor.

The motor mounts shown require stringers that are aprox. 2" lower than direct mounting. Each mount is secured to the stringer with two bolts. One of the mount's holes is slotted to allow for horizontal movement during alignment.

The engine is mounted onto the large threaded stud on each mount. Lower and upper nuts allow for vertical adjustment, and an extra nut on top locks things down. Thr mounts also have a vibration-damping inner core.

If you're going to rework the stringers, I would strongly suggest allowing for the extra space needed for the adjustable mounts. It will make alignment vastly easier in the end.

[DanManSanDiego]

Thanks, Ed.
Going to talk to the Marina Yard's mechanic in morning for his assessment. So if we used the type of mount you showed earlier, we would need to lower stringers by about two inches? We'll have to modify them whatever we do if we move forward with the A4. I was thinking the modification would be more of an extension, but it sounds like you're suggesting an entire new support structure. How feasible (and expensive) is that?

[Mo]

Pics of what Jim did this past weekend...took him a day and a half. That said, if you have a running or salvagable A4 the mods to the rails is the way to go.

[edwardc]

Thanks, Ed.
Going to talk to the Marina Yard's mechanic in morning for his assessment. So if we used the type of mount you showed earlier, we would need to lower stringers by about two inches? We'll have to modify them whatever we do if we move forward with the A4. I was thinking the modification would be more of an extension, but it sounds like you're suggesting an entire new support structure. How feasible (and expensive) is that?

If you're a fiberglass guy (disclaimer: I'm not), I'm told this is a relatively straightforward procedure. Access is going to drive the level of effort required more than anything, which will in turn drive the price.

So talk to a fiberglass guy, not the mechanic.