Newbie Needs Fuel Advice

[lippysyd]

This is only our second summer with our ’72 Catalina 27. Honestly we don’t have any experience with Atomic 4’s (or sailboats for that matter- we’re learning as we go) There’s so much I don’t know, so I’m trying to help hubby troubleshoot our engine. I've been doing a lot of research which has me a bit confused. I’m hoping you guys wouldn’t mind telling me if we’re on the right track.
We filled our gas tank for the first time last week, putting fresh gas on top of about an eighth of a tank of old gas and stabilizer from last season. (We burned some of the old gas off before adding fresh) We got caught in a storm and got tossed around pretty good. Trying to motor back to the marina through the waves, the engine kept stalling out. (About every 10 minutes or so) Restarting was somewhat difficult, but it would eventually start, run a bit, then stall again. It really only ran well if we kept the choke up the entire time.
Hubby changed the inline filter once we got back (with one from an auto-parts store. Our local marine store was out) and it ran longer, but still only with the choke up, and still eventually stalled out. Sometimes it would start right back up and other times it took a few tries. Hubby ended up changing the inline again which helped for a while.

I’ve spent hours here reading around (especially this thread: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7382) and here’s what I’m thinking: We have bad gas. (or water in the gas, or air in the lines, or all of the above)
Our plan of action:

1. Pump off some of the gas and see what it looks like. I suspect it will look gunky, so I imagine that a tank cleaning will come next. We have a manual pump and some old jerry cans at the ready. If we have to add anything, which is better: acetone or carb cleaner?
2. Inspect the lines. Replace if needed. Maybe add a bulb primer to the line
3. We have no idea at this point what kind of fuel filter or separator we have, so check that and possibly replace with a Racor.
4. Replace the inline filter with the recommended part for this engine.

What do you think? I didn’t include the carb only because to me, of all the things it could be, this one sounds like the hardest thing to deal with, so I’m hoping the others will fix the problem.

One more question: We have a 1972 Catalina 27, the dinette model, which means there is an aft berth on either side of the engine with a very small access panel. How the heck do you work on these things? There is no room to do anything!
There’s likely much more we should do, maintenance-wise, but funds are limited until September. I’d like to keep it cheap for now. (if possible)

[edwardc]

First, welcome to the forum! You've come to the best possible place to get help with your A4.

My take is that you've almost cetrainly got crud in your tank that was stirred up by the bouncy trip. This results in bits of the crud clogging the filters, but some of it will get through and clog the carb as well.

You sound like you've got a good handle on where to start. Systematically go over the fuel system from one end to the other eliminating sources of crud or dirt. Be sure to examine the insides of any rubber fuel hoses, as the original ones installed on the boat were almost certainly not rated for ethanol-laiden gas. The ethanol causes the old hoses to swell and disintegrate. Replace any dubious hoses with ethanol-rated ones.
Don't put a rubber squeezy bulb in-line. It's not USCG approved, and you don't need it. A mechanical fuel pump has a manual primer built in, and a properly functioning electronic fuel pump will produce enough suction to prime through a dry system.

Don't fear the carb. Although a precision device, it's disassembly and cleaning is quite straightforward. Just be clean and meticulous.
As a first check of the carb, you should unscrew the plug at the bottom of the float bowl and catch the cup or so of gas that comes out in a clear glass container. Examine it for crud or particles. It should be crystal clear. Even the tiniest bit of dirt here can clog the main jet and produce the symptims you describe.

Moyer sells an excellent carb service video if you're not feeling confident enough to tackle it yet. If you're opening the carb, I would recommend replacing, at a minimum, the main gasket between the halves, and the float valve.

Good luck and keep asking questions. We'll get you answers.

[romantic comedy]

Welcome to the wonderful world of sailing.

These engines can be great little work horses, if taken care of.

You are on the right track with the fuel system. When a carb gets crud in it, it needs to be cleaned by disassembly. It is not a difficult job though.

Check out the Video that Don has. Very helpful.

You have come to a great place for advice, and help. We all want to see these engines run for ever, and they can.

[yeahjohn]

I would say this. Drain fuel from tank and let it set, look at it see what it looks like, dispose of that fuel. Buy new fuel, replace fuel hose, then put on new water separator and inline filter, shoot fuel through the new fuel system into a jug and check it out, this will save you the head ache of shooting crud into a newly cleaned carb. Pull of carb and shoot carb cleaner and run wire through all of the little holes and jets, carefully unscrew all the parts one at a time and clean out all build up, get the carb diagram so you don't miss anything, it is also a good idea to have a few gaskets laying around the carb body and the flange gasket in case you break them. I would say most people on this form can break a carburetor down in minutes, so I would say 30min - 1hr will give you plenty of time. After taking apart the carb you should have a good idea how your fuel looks either way.

A cheap work around is to replace water separator and fuel filter, then to unscrew the main jet screw on the carb bowl and to pump some fuel out of your carb through the main jet. This can solve your problem all together or be a quick fix for 5 min until something else clogs it up. Be careful with the main jet screw because there is a little gasket on that bolt that you need in good shape.

[Whippet]

fuel filters

Welcome! In case you haven't checked other parts of this site, all the filters you need are right here in parts catalog. I think good to call Ken rather than do it all online. You will gets lots of helpful advice along the way. All depends on personal budgets how much to replace and how much to repair eg get a new carb and rebuild old one as back-up?

Top of my winter project list is to redo entire 32 year old fuel system. Now have copper lines and other old parts. Will replace tank w plastic Moeller because never quite sure when aluminum tank is past its sell-by date -- and i get to forego joy of removing tank crud.

hope it all gets solved. happy sailing

[sastanley]

Whippet, I am very happy with my Moeller poly tank.

lippy...welcome...the C-27 is indeed a little cramped with the engine under the steps. We'll help you thru it though. the advice you've received thus far is good.

An outboard tank with clean fuel would be a good test to see if the engine will run..ask to borrow one from a buddy with one and all you need to do is buy a fuel line to connect.

Bad fuel is always an issue....if you do not know the exact history of that fuel in the tank I would not risk running any more of it thru the motor.

[RMark]

Don't know if everyone will approve but here goes,

This is how I dealt with the impossible engine access on my 77 cat. 27. It makes it a pleasure to do maintenance on the motor, and when I do have a issue under way it can be dealt with quickly and safely, I love it. Sounds like carb is full of crud, I have cleaned mine by sucking dirt through jets, try choking carb out with piece of card board over top of spark arrester while applying enough throttle to keep engine running, remove card board just before engine dies,repeat several times.It works.

[Al Schober]

Time for me to jump in here regarding crud in the fuel tank.
Don't use the engine fuel connection to see if you have crud in the tank. The tubes for fuel pickup typically end 1/2 - 1" above the bottom of the tank. You need to get to the bottom.
In my case I was lucky - I could run a 3/8" copper tube from the fill opening right to the bottom of the tank. I used one of those Jabsco brass hand pumps to take out a gallon - pumped it into a glass jug. On settling, it was half fuel, half watery crud. Fuel went back into the tank, the watery crud went into the local 'watery crud' receptacle.
If you don't find watery crud, be glad. If you do, check the o-ring on the cap for your fuel fill - it may have gone away. But getting the tank clear is a first step to a good fuel system. Pumping it out through a tube certainly won't get it all, but it's a start. That just gets rid of the watery part.
Good filters are your next step. It doesn't take much of a hunk of crud to clog your main jet. We did two cruises (short) this year where the engine required heavy choke to run. Finally had time to clear the main jet (mine is adjustable) - screw needle in 1.5 turns, screw needle out 1.5 turns, jet cleared. Still working on getting a good Racor installed, but it's coming!

[lippysyd]

Ok, so first let me say thanks to you all for the warm welcome. I'm on quite a few forums for this and that and I'm really impressed with how nice this and a couple of sailboat boards I go to are. Not a troll to be found.

Anyhoo, my husband and I headed to the boat yesterday to start working. Unfortunately we have crap service down there, so I missed the last few posts, so we may have missed something.

We pulled off all all the gas we could. We hooked the transfer pump up the the line near the inline filter and pulled it from there. I filled a cup with some gas from early on and it was clear. Then I pulled some from the very end and it was also clear. We let it sit overnight, which is when I took the picture.

(I swear that's not a picture of my beer, lol)

Then Hubby checked the entire fuel line- copper- it had a kink which had caused a hole. Replaced that with an identical copper line which was all AutoZone seemed to have. (Hubby didn't want to wait until morning to get rubber tube)

He also took the bowl off the fuel pump and cleaned it. It was gunky.



We put some new gas in it and took it out for a test. Nothing had changed, it was still stalling and would only run with the choke open. Limped back to port.

He took the carb off- it was pretty dirty. Gave that a thorough cleaning, replaced the gaskets and put it back on. Hubby has never dealt with a carb before, but the guy at the marina where we bought the gaskets thought it looked in good shape other than needing a cleaning. He also changed all the plugs which were not looking great. We had to get home, so all we could do was let it run for a while in idle at the dock. (I totally forgot to put it under a load at the dock, duh) It stalled out a couple of times and stuttered for a while, then evened out, but it ran for about 20 min. without the choke on, which was an improvement. Then it got quieter, but it kept running.

We won't get back to it until Monday or Tuesday, and first order of business is a test run. Where should we plan on heading next if it's still not running right?

[lippysyd]

This is how I dealt with the impossible engine access on my 77 cat. 27. It makes it a pleasure to do maintenance on the motor, and when I do have a issue under way it can be dealt with quickly and safely, I love it. Sounds like carb is full of crud, I have cleaned mine by sucking dirt through jets, try choking carb out with piece of card board over top of spark arrester while applying enough throttle to keep engine running, remove card board just before engine dies,repeat several times.It works.

I don't know, I kinda think this is genius! How did you seal it to keep water out?

[Marian Claire]

Sounds like you are doing all the right things. I am making an assumption as to how your tank/pickup tube are set up but drawing fuel out as you have described may not be getting to the very bottom of the tank. That is where all the crud will be. Your first post mentions " tossed around pretty good". Until the tank is clean you may be repeating the clogged filter, dirty carb process every time you are in rough conditions. How is access to the tank? Any way to get a line down the fill access and pump out from there? If so rocking the boat as you pump out will help remove more crud. I fought a dirty tank, clogged filters, dirty carb, engine shutdown, for over a year with repeated attempts to clean the tank in place. Only after removing and cleaning the tank did the problem stop. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[BunnyPlanet169]

I think Dan is complete right about this. Unless you can get all the crap out of your tank, it's likely to be a recurring and frustrating problem.

Here's a picture of my carb after 40 years of neglect. My engine also began to fail after a few vigorous sails following a few years of previous owner sedentary.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=67565&postcount=25

Good luck!

[lippysyd]

Oh wow bunny, I'm glad our carb didn't look that bad.

*whispers* I think it's fixed, knock on teak. We had to disconnect the fuel full hose to pull gas from the bottom of the tank. I pulled two jugs just to make sure I was really at the bottom, and they both looked fine. Took it for a 30-minute test run & she ran better than she ever has... until we got back to the marina. Then she tried to stall. Hubby ran the fuel line from the fuel pump to a jug of gas & it pumped fine. We're thinking that there was a hole in the fuel line, so he replaced it. Another test went really well. We're going to take her out tomorrow for an actual sail, so we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Ya know, I know there's a bunch of threads on this problem; I've read many of them. I feel kinda bad for starting another that's basically a rehash of other threads, but I'm so grateful for the encouragement and confidence you guys gave me. It helps to know I understood what you all had been saying all along. Thanks so much!