Engine won't start

[ndutton]

See if this helps:

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=127659&postcount=10

[jbsoukup]

slightly off topic;
the best thing I ever did for my Catalina 30 A4 (electronic ignition notwithstanding) is replace the wiring harness. all new wire, properly color coded and slightly oversize from the engine to the dashboard and eliminating those nasty trailer plugs along with the ammeter with its associated long charging circuit. Had a lot of funky intermittent shutdown gremlins previously.
on topic;
IF the engine ran before you did something, then the something you did is likely the problem. backtrack.
Also, I can't stress enough the importance of the anti-siphon loop; critical system for Cat30 IMHO. Once you get the engine sorted, make sure the anti-siphon is working properly

[Dave Neptune]

If memory serves me right there are 16 teeth (a guess) maybe a couple more.

If the engine is on the compression stroke of #1 at TDC there are 16 different directions you can install the distributor IE 16 directions the rotor can point. Any one of these 16 directions WILL WORK JUST FINE. Only the factory sets it in pointing away from the block for manufacturing purposes and speed of production.

When the piston is on TDC of #1 compression stroke the direction the rotor points, IS the number 1 firing position and can easily start the engine if you start there with the #1 plug wire (ignoring the cap #1) and she is close enough to start and fine tune.

If you want it just like the factory bring #1 to TDC on the compression stroke and THEN install the distributor with the rotor pointing away like at the factory.

Also note the distributor only fires at 4 precise positions 90* apart any where in between the coil is charging. This space between is what allows you to rotate the distributor for fine tuning.

Most mechanics absolutely ignore the factory position because to set it you must look up the info for proper positioning but if you UNDFERSTAND timing you set TDC of #1 on compression stroke and just drop the distributor in and start from there!

Dave Neptune

[JackConnick]

Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack

[Dave Neptune]

Jack, I would use the alternator to rotate the engine whenever the flywheel is not accessible. Just squeeze the belt and rotate the alt, the engine will turn easily.

Rotate the engine while feeling for the piston to get to the top. When the #1 piston is at the top you are on the "exhaust or compression" stroke. You should be able to feel for the valves and or see them. Both should be closed to be on compression. If you can't figure the compression or exhaust stroke go ahead and place your plug wires, #1 where the rotor points. Then try to start if no start with fuel or starting fluid then you are what is called 180* out of time. Just rotate the wires 180* on the cap and try again. Done this many times on an A-4.

If you have the #1 piston at the top and aren't sure you have a 50 ~ 50 chance of being right and it is easy to move the wires 180* on the cap.

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10870

[SbMolly]

Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack

Can you see the roll pins on the front of the motor? Or get in to remove the cover, so you can see the pins? If no to both, I can’t help. But if yes...

I find it next to impossible to detect the compression when rotating slowly by hand, and impossible to miss when cranking via the starter. Of course it’s impossible to land the starter right on tdc, but that’s ok.

Crank with the starter until it blasts yours thumb off the #1 cylinder plug threads.

The pin will likely be a bit past straight up. I’ll call straight up 12 o’clock, the pin is probably at 10 o-clock or so. From here you need to rotate the engine a little under two complete turns.

Start rotating the engine manually ( easier if all 4 plugs are off). Be sure you are turning it counter clockwise, when looking at the flywheel from in front of the motor. In other words same direction the starter was spinning it.

Watch the pins as you turn. First the bottom pin will pass “12 o’clock” , keep spinning. next the top pin will pass 12 - meaning you have gone one rotation of the crank. Keep spinning.

Next the bottom pin comes up again, so you have half turn left. Keep spinning, the next time a pin is pointing up, that’s tdc. Sounds more complicated than it is.

Another way to keep track is to stop the 4th time you have a pin straight up, after you cranked your thumb off.


Now that you have tdc, don’t remove the distributor. Just rotate it a bit so the rotor is pointing to the position of any of the plug towers. That is where your cylinder one wire goes. Then connect the rest - remembering that the rotor spins clockwise.

[sastanley]

SbMolly...You can't see the flywheel rollpin on a C-30, unless you cut a hole or otherwise installed a door there. I cut a 1.5" hole in mine so I could stuff the hand crank in there...

[SbMolly]

SbMolly...You can't see the flywheel rollpin on a C-30, unless you cut a hole or otherwise installed a door there. I cut a 1.5" hole in mine so I could stuff the hand crank in there...

In that case, break out the hole saw, (: would suck trying to find tdc blind.

I know these are sailboats, and the engine is an afterthought, but sometimes I’d like to meet some of these designers, and slap them around.

[ndutton]

I know these are sailboats, and the engine is an afterthought, but sometimes I’d like to meet some of these designers, and slap them around.

I think Shawn and other Catalina 30 owners will agree, we enjoy just about the best engine access of all. One small hole to view the flywheel roll pin and that's resolved too.

. . . . . would suck trying to find tdc blind

The balloon method I've referenced in this thread and others is not precise enough to find an exact TDC but it will get the timing close enough to be able to start the engine. Slowly turn the engine until the balloon is at its maximum inflation and that should get you off the Schneid.

[RhodeRunner]

RR is back, work kept me busy for a couple of days.

Thanks for all the feedback.

#1TDC. I determined this by cutting a hole to see the role pin of the flywheel. I was able to make a tool to assist in rotating the flywheel CC to the point of maximum compression and completed the turn till the roll pin was vertical. At some point I mixed up the leads (i’m less of a newbie now then I was at the beginning of this saga) so I don’t know where they were when the electric ignition worked. Back to factory settings seemed like the best option.

Update since last post. The starter was underperforming more and more, which was making troubleshooting difficult. I brought it in to get serviced. Turns out the casting (within the flywheel) has significantly worn where the shaft entered allowing significant play. Lucky for me they had a previously serviced starter and solenoid on hand. And I didn’t need to wait for the service.

New starter installed. Like waking up suddenly healthy after a persistent illness and realizing you had forgotten how debilitating it had been - the starter is fantastic. Engine turns over with ease, but still shuts down quickly. I suspect it is finding the right idle mixture or the adjustable main jet setting and we will be off.

As always the fresh water through hull fitting is firmly in the closed position, but looking forward to bringing it to the open position with sustained engine running.

-RR

[JackConnick]

Happy to report back that I was indeed 180° off. SBMolly's ideas of having my "remote starter" (my wife) turn over the engine, then rotate twice afterwards did the trick. I agree, no way to feel the compression with a finger and using hand rotation otherwise.

I did pull and rotate the distributor around 180°, as my spark plug wires reach each spot exactly. I tried setting the timing using Don's trick of seeing where the continuity off the coil stopped. I used a volt meter to see the current.

She then started up easily. However the spark was really retarded. I ran up the revs a bit and rotated the distributor for max revs and she was a lot happier.

I have an Islander 28 so access to the front of the engine is easy.

Thanks guys for you help!

Jack

[RhodeRunner]

RR is running!
Some carburetor adjustment to find the idle. Starts up fast and wants to cut if I don't bring the throttle down quickly. Held true under load with the prop turning.

[JackConnick]

I would run it up and then turn the distributor for max revs.

Jack

[sastanley]

Good news, RR!