Valve Lifters NOT Moving

[Mo]

Hang in there.

Hey bud,

It will take a couple of hours to remove that engine from the boat. The job you have in front of you may not be as bad as you anticipate. By the time you start fooling around with outboards, mounts, accessory things that haven't even been anticipated...etc...it will be a nightmare.

Just to bring your boat alongside will be circus act. Trying to drive the boat, leaning back over the transom to control the engine, stop the boat etc...the boat is well over 10,000 lbs. By the time you slow it down enough to stop with an outboard, during an approach, it has lost steerage and could blow off .... you won't have the power to stay out of trouble.

I am trying to give you some really good advice. Fix your engine. Don't despair because it will go easier than you think.

[keithems]

leaving no stone unturned....i still have to ask..

In post #22 on the other thread you indicated it was #4 exhaust that alone was moving. Now you say #1 exhaust alone moves. This needs to be clarified. It is possible for a camshaft to break leaving all lobes outboard from the break motionless.

that sounded likely, but thinking about it....

isn't the cam driven from the timing gear at the flywheel end of the motor? if so, and it were broken -- the #1 valves are closest to the driving force, and therefore they would be the ones moving, rather than the # 4.

[lat 64]

The cam is driven by the timing gears which are at the transmission end of the engine. The flywheel is at the opposite end of the timing gears. If your engine is a direct drive straight-out-the-back-to-the-prop, then the timing gears on on the aft end of the row of cylinders.

Mo has good advice all the time and he's correct here too.
The process of dragging the engine out and fitting the new cam ain't so bad. It just takes some beer.(and a few bucks)

This is good opportunity to inspect a few other things too.

Find a dock bum with an i-phone and give him some beer to video the movement(or lack thereof) of the lifters for us.

Hold Fast, the forum expects each man to do his duty.

Russ

[ILikeRust]

Having just completely disassembled and rebuilt an Atomic 4 over the past few months, I can state with confidence you're not going to pull and replace the camshaft with the engine in the boat.

The camshaft comes out the back end of the block - not the flywheel end. To get the camshaft out and back in, you need to remove, at the very least, the rear cover and the reversing gear. I think you probably could remove the camshaft without taking off the the oil pan, although you would have to turn the engine upside down, because if you pulled the camshaft out with the engine right-side-up, all the lifters would fall down into the oil pan. Then you would have to take the oil pan off to retrieve them and put them back in, and in order to take the oil pan off, you have to remove the flywheel and flywheel housing.

If you turned the engine upside-down, you could pull the camshaft out without taking off the oil pan - but it would be awkward, because the oil pan would be in your way. And then you would have to keep the engine upside down until you put the camshaft back in, or else the lifters would fall out.

It's a bit of a job, but not something that mere mortals can't do. Hell, I did it. As if that's any kind of benchmark!

[ILikeRust]

we did hear one brief metallic sound, but no banging or anything, as i'd expect from some major component breaking / failing

I'm going to guess that the brief metallic sound you heard was the camshaft snapping just forward of the #4 exhaust valve.

And you wouldn't hear anything banging if it did that, because all that would happen would be the portion of the camshaft forward of the break would simply stop turning.

I would be very curious to know, though, why it would snap like that. I suppose if the center or forward bearing suddenly went bad and seized, that could do it.

Man, what a pain.

It does sound like you are going to have to hoist the engine out and open it up.

[keithems]

yes

thank you for clarifying

however, like columbo -- may i ask you one more question?

oil is still clean -- if there were major metal fatigue, wouldn't i at least feel some specs in the oil?

......................

long discussion yesterday with nice guy on my dock who used to work on ford tractor motors -- also flat head 4's like the a-4

he says maybe oil circ. problems caused this in the first place? i do know that last valve [cyl 4] was noisy for years, and the last plug was always black and oil covered.

my oil pressure was always good, however -- always 40-50 psi at full power AND at idle -- seemed fishy -- then this year i noticed that it was increasing over time -- up to 60 psi -- replaced the oil adjuster with one from my older a4 -- but the one that was in there had a rod -- no spring -- anyhoo -- all that makes me think there may have been a blockage reducing or constricting oil flow, leading to fatigue in the cam

bottom line on all this is, i don't want to just do a quickie job dockside to replace the cam without correcting the cause -- as well as replacing rings, since the motor always had tons of blowby -- remember i bought it 3.5 yrs ago for only 800, so i knew going in sooner or later it would need some work -- so i need to do what you did -- a nice long careful overhaul over the winter

meanwhile i'm gonna strap on a 9.9 or 15 longshaft; i've always wanted a backup o/b anyways, esp. if i ever really were to go anywhere or venture out in surly weather...

which leads to another question:

do any of you [especially maurice, since he has the same boat] have opinions / experience on a 9.9 v. a 15? will the 9.9 give enough power?

my prev. boat [c&c 25] had a 3 hp, which, believe it or not, was sufficient, though not great. obviously it's a tradeoff between weight at the extreme stern [which i can counterbalance by filling my 20 gallon water tank in the bow] and h/p requirements for an 8,000 lb boat [empty weight, to be sure, but these c&c's are lots lighter than other boats their size. ]

as far as getting in and out of the dock, etc. i'm a way better sailor than mechanic -- 10,000 hours as a former pro pilot and flt instructor; began sailing on a sunfish, graduated to an albacore for many years. and the first keelboats i sailed to and from docks or moorings with no motor. plus i've idiotproofed my current dock with docklines in the water in the form of an inverted v, so when i come in, i can just keep the motor in fwd -- and the boat will stay close to the dock and stop until i can get my lines on. so, really, i'll be fine -- i just want to go sailing!!

[joe_db]

yes

thank you for clarifying

however, like columbo -- may i ask you one more question?

oil is still clean -- if there were major metal fatigue, wouldn't i at least feel some specs in the oil?

......................

long discussion yesterday with nice guy on my dock who used to work on ford tractor motors -- also flat head 4's like the a-4

he says maybe oil circ. problems caused this in the first place? i do know that last valve [cyl 4] was noisy for years, and the last plug was always black and oil covered.

my oil pressure was always good, however -- always 40-50 psi at full power AND at idle -- seemed fishy -- then this year i noticed that it was increasing over time -- up to 60 psi -- replaced the oil adjuster with one from my older a4 -- but the one that was in there had a rod -- no spring -- anyhoo -- all that makes me think there may have been a blockage reducing or constricting oil flow, leading to fatigue in the cam

bottom line on all this is, i don't want to just do a quickie job dockside to replace the cam without correcting the cause -- as well as replacing rings, since the motor always had tons of blowby -- remember i bought it 3.5 yrs ago for only 800, so i knew going in sooner or later it would need some work -- so i need to do what you did -- a nice long careful overhaul over the winter

meanwhile i'm gonna strap on a 9.9 or 15 longshaft; i've always wanted a backup o/b anyways, esp. if i ever really were to go anywhere or venture out in surly weather...

which leads to another question:

do any of you [especially maurice, since he has the same boat] have opinions / experience on a 9.9 v. a 15? will the 9.9 give enough power?

my prev. boat [c&c 25] had a 3 hp, which, believe it or not, was sufficient, though not great. obviously it's a tradeoff between weight at the extreme stern [which i can counterbalance by filling my 20 gallon water tank in the bow] and h/p requirements for an 8,000 lb boat [empty weight, to be sure, but these c&c's are lots lighter than other boats their size. ]

as far as getting in and out of the dock, etc. i'm a way better sailor than mechanic -- 10,000 hours as a former pro pilot and flt instructor; began sailing on a sunfish, graduated to an albacore for many years. and the first keelboats i sailed to and from docks or moorings with no motor. plus i've idiotproofed my current dock with docklines in the water in the form of an inverted v, so when i come in, i can just keep the motor in fwd -- and the boat will stay close to the dock and stop until i can get my lines on. so, really, i'll be fine -- i just want to go sailing!!

Please forget about outboard power and just fix your engine.
Getting an A4 in and out of a C&C 30 is NOT a hard job and can be done entirely with the boat's own gear. A C&C 30 is NOT designed for outboard power. I can't imagine trying to deal with any kind of bad weather with a rig like that. Among other things, you totally lose the prop wash over the rudder.
Where are you? If you're anywhere around Kent Island I'll come over some time and take a look if you want.

Joe DB
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

https://www.dellabarba.com

[67c&ccorv]

Doesn't the cam gear fix to the cam via a key cut into the shaft?

It may be just a case of a broken slot key in the shaft that can be easily fixed...

Pull the motor!

[ILikeRust]

That would not explain why the #4 exhaust valves moves but none of the others do. If the gear were loose and spinning on the camshaft, none of the valves would move.

[Mo]

Hi,

My advice is to scrap the idea of the outboard. The rudder on our boats is swept back. Like yourself, I had a smaller C&C 24 and had a 9.9 on it. It struggled in chop and rough seas. Forget that on a 30.

Haul the engine out, have a look at it, repair what you need to and put it back in. When you take it apart you will see what you have. No need to go further than you can afford...it can always be hauled out for a winter project. You will find out real quick how easy that will come out of the boat. Looks worse than it is.

[Ball Racing]

I think you probably could remove the camshaft without taking off the the oil pan, although you would have to turn the engine upside down, because if you pulled the camshaft out with the engine right-side-up, all the lifters would fall down into the oil pan. Then you would have to take the oil pan off to retrieve them and put them back in, and in order to take the oil pan off, you have to remove the flywheel and flywheel housing.

If you pulled the cam in the boat,right side up,
you would have to remove the head, so you could remove the valves and springs to make room to remove the lifters from the top side, or at least raise them up.
Because the base circle of the cam lobe is smaller than the cam bearing. So when you slide the cam, the lifter would hit the diameter of the cam bearing.

[ILikeRust]

You can't remove the lifters from the top side - there is not enough clearance in that side access area. The only way the lifters can come out of the block or go in is from underneath.

But I suppose you could, as you suggest, tie a bit of wire or something to them to keep them from falling back in. But it would be a tricky thing to get that camshaft back in there unless you have every one of the lifters held all the way up as high as they will go. Which essentially is what you're doing when you flip the engine over and slide the cam in with the block upside-down. All the lifters fall to the top end of their travel when you do that.

[keithems]

yes -- i'm considering trying that

if so, i'll put duct tape or something on the lifters to keep them from sliding down.

however, my concern then is that i'm not dealing with what caused the cam to break -- lack of oil circulation? -- etc. -- and will likely have to do a real overhaul when the season ends...

also, assuming the cam is broken, i'm not sure i'll be able to get the broken part out of there without removing the oil pan and turning the block upside down....

i went and looked at the camshaft and the block from the previous a4 this boat had; i was amazed that the cams seem to be made from plastic! if so, it's easy to understand how they wore down, and it's also likely that i don't have a broken camshaft, just one with 7 of its 8 cams worn off.

stay tuned....

[joe_db]

If you're willing to come get it, you can have my rusty old block to scavenge for spare parts.

[Laker]

I cringe at the thought of you taking a drill to your transom. Bite the bullet - put all that energy and work of hanging an outboard into pulling your A4.

Make your boat whole again , don't make more holes.