Head Gasket?

[exodus]

Help!
I also seem to have a blown head gasket. However, so many things go wrong that I'm getting paranoid about diagnosing anything. Anyway, I tried to start the engine, and nothing doing. OK, check fuel, spark and compression. Guess What? No compression in 3 of the 4 cylinders. The one closest to the coil reads 150 psi, the others are zippereno. I should mention that I have a vee drive, and the engine is therefore mounted "backward" and pointing down at about 15 degrees. When I found water in all cylinders, I put in the MMO, changed the oil, and blew out the cylinders. Note: blowing out the cylinders without putting a cloth or something over the holes is not recommended, as you and the cabin, and even topsides will receive a powerful spraying with a mixture of MMO and water! Live and learn. Anyway, I also drained the manifold by removing the small plug on the side of it, towards the end that is nearest the coil. I guess about 12 oz of water came out, making me very nervous. After my shower from the engine, I cranked it again and the intake valves all go merrily up and down, even without actually running the engine. Do you guys think that the problem really is the head gasket? If so, why do they fail? Did I do something that annoyed it ? What?
I like reading the forum, and appreciate all the interest that y'all show with each other.

Rog Brown

[sastanley]

Rog,
I think we need more info.

What year is the motor, what do you know about its history? Don Moyer reports that the failure rate of the newer head gaskets that Universal supplies is near zero, but, I don't know exactly what year this occurred. You might find this information by searching the forum.

It is most common for water to get into the motor from excessive cranking with the intake open and the engine not starting..you need the exhaust gases from a running engine to get the water out of the exhaust or it will back up the 'hot section' of pipe and eventually dump into the cylinders. Zero compression could indicate stuck open exhaust valves with rusty valve guides (from water intrusion)

Now that you've gotten all the water out, can you get the engine running? Keep the intake closed until she fires up, then open it and make sure you have water coming out of the exhaust & we'll go from there.

[exodus]

Head Gasker?

Thanks, Shawn.

I don't know the engines history except what the seller told me when I bought it. He owns a marina and guy who bought a boat there didn't want an A4 so he swapped it out for a diesel,and the A4 was fogged and in storage for a few years, I have run it for a total of about 4 hours, in 15-20 min intervals over the past few months. It always started up in a few seconds, and I have not cranked it up while not running for more than a few seconds.I do open the raw water intake before starting, but I'm thinking I'll stop doing that.

I'll get the engine info next time I'm on the boat.Also will try to start it. When I discovered the water in the cylinders, the engine had run OK just a few days before.

[sastanley]

OK Rog...sounds good. Generally speaking, from what I know, the only danger of water intrusion from cranking is if it won't start. Usually, I try to start it, but if it takes more than 10 seconds, I then go close the intake, start, then open once it is running.

I am not sure where the water is coming from at this point. You are kind of in the same boat I am, in that although I know the PO of my boat and can ask questions, there isn't a lot of use data available in the last few years (the boat was only used 10-20 hours per year for the last 5 or so.)

We'll figure it out..take notes and be observant, and we'll get her running!

[exodus]

Shawn
I've been away for a few days. Went to the boat and had to detour and fix a pinhole leak in the gas tank.I also forgot to turn off the engine batt sw and left the fuel valve open and the ignition switch in the on position. The result was that the batt discharged through the coil and had a no load voltage of 6 which I got back to 11.5 by charging it, but that's as high as it goes. I think that it's a goner. 30 years of sailing, and I've never done such a thing before. Live and learn (again).
Still zero compression in 3 of the 4 cyl. I think that I'll just pull the head this weekend. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I am still curious as to why a head gasket fails. Maybe Don knows.

Rog

[Marian Claire]

Are the valves seating properly? They could be sticking before they seat. Just an idea to check before the head is removed. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[tenders]

Head gaskets, especially old-style head gaskets (post- the asbestos gaskets, pre- the carbon gaskets that Don has sold for the last 10-15 years) fail when water gets into the cylinders because they blow out when the piston tries to compress the water through them. They also fail when the engine overheats, although the exact reason for this isn't clear to me. Sometimes, they just fail. (However, they don't cause cancer, which was why they were used in the first place.)

From what I understand Don convinced an engineer at Victor to make a new gasket for the A4 out of modern materials and that decision has prevented thousands of A4s, undoubtedly including mine, from ending up in the scrap heap.

If you can see the edge of your head gasket between the head and the block, and it isn't dark, dark grey, (ie, it's light green or manila brown) I'd recommend pulling the head off and replacing the gasket. If what you're experiencing now is just sticky valves rather than a failed gasket, well, you'll be able to see that and fix the problem, and the old gasket was going to fail sooner or later anyway.

[Dave Neptune]

Hydraulic?

Rog, if you were trying to start with water in the cylinders you could have "hydrauliced" the cylinder. If the engine really grunted on the starter motor the "hydraulicing" could cause extreme preassures and comoprimised the integrity of the head gasket between the cylinders.
If you were showing 150 psi in one cylinder it probably still had standing water in it, othwerwise you could not make a 150 psi in an A-4.
If the intake & exhaust valves are moving up and down about all that is left is the head gasket unless you holed the pistons which is very very unlikely.

Dave Neptune

[exodus]

Thank You, Marion, Tenders, and Dave.
I am happy to know why a head gasket can go.I started to pull the head on Sat. All the bolts came off, several with the studs attached. I noticed that one or two of the studs appeared to have a very noticeable build up of a black carbon-like material, while the others were like a clean, smooth black in color and texture.Is that normal? Anyway, the gasket edge is a dirty tan color, and I started to pry it up routine, which went well until I noticed that the would not separate in the corner where the thermostat housing is located. The corner stud there is still in the block.So I tapped the head back down and went to work on it starting underneath that corner stud. Nada.And when I got a screwdriver going in that area, it would absolutely stop after an inch or so. It felt like I had hit a flange or something. I am certain that I was not hitting a stud, because I carefully placed the screwdriver so as to miss it. Tried to get a stud puller. but none to be found on the island.Have you ever heard of a "stud removal socket? I found one for 3/8 stud, but it didn't specify a thread such as fine or coarse. Don recommends a snap on puller, with a thread specification in the engine manual. Suggestions for getting that corner stud will be appreciated.
Thanks to all.

Rog

[roadnsky]

Tried to get a stud puller. but none to be found on the island.Have you ever heard of a "stud removal socket? I found one for 3/8 stud, but it didn't specify a thread such as fine or coarse. Don recommends a snap on puller, with a thread specification in the engine manual. Suggestions for getting that corner stud will be appreciated.

Rog-
Don sells a STUD PULLER on this site. Maybe give Ken a call in the morning to verify it'll work for you in this situation?

[exodus]

update

Well, I finally got the head off. I have attempted to attach pics of the head and block for your comments, if any. Before I install the new gaskets, I wonder how or what I can check while the head is off... can I crank the engine and see if the valves are working? Anything else? I really don't want to repalce the gaskets twice!!

Thanks again

Rog

[exodus]

pictures

here's hoping it worked

[sastanley]

Hi exodus,

Still no pics.

Adding attachments with a web browser is still a pain, as they were never really designed to do that. This forum software is powerful, but a little quirky sometimes too.

Here is "Shawn's quick tutorial for getting pics up on the Moyer forum"
1. * Re-size the pic to something like 1024 x 768, as this site will allow you to upload a pic so huge that it is hard to look at (since most cameras these days are spitting out 4MB images at 8+ megapixels)
2. Whack the "manage attachments" button
3. That button launches a pop-up window that allows you to use the "browse" button to locate your picture from your HDD, camera card, etc.. (make sure pop-ups are allowed for MoyerMarine.com)
4. hit the "upload" button after browsing for your pic.
5. close the pop up window.
6. You should now see the file name you just uploaded next to the "manage attachments" button below in the "additional options" section when replying/composing.

Below I made a little screen shot of the pop-up screen for uploading attachments.
Good luck & hope this helps

[off topic]
* For those of you like me that may still be using Windows XP Pro as your OS because you can't stand Vista, there is a list of "XP PowerToys" available from Microsoft..these are little OS add-ons that are written by Microsoft, but are not officially supported. I think one of the best ones is the 'image resizer' powertoy, which allows you to right click on an image file in Windows Explorer and select the menu option "resize pictures"..it is much easier than messing with a graphics program such as Photoshop or paint.net

Searching on "XP Powertoy image resizer" at microsoft.com will give you some more info.
Apparently, there are some non-Microsoft built 'image resizer' utilities available for Vista also. I just got my first Vista powered PC last week, so I'll test it out when I have some time.
[/off topic]

[rigspelt]

I'd recommend images no larger than 600 pixels on the longest side.

[exodus]

head gasket?

Thanks for the input, sa & rig! I'm still wondering if I can turn over the engine safely in order to check if any valves are stuck. Is there anything else I can check before I install the new gasket(s)?
Exodus