I am in pretty deep now!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Sculldog1
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2018
    • 42

    I am in pretty deep now!

    Well it appears I have either gotten carried away or am doing due diligence. Either way I have a lot of work to do and would be very grateful for any input from fellow A4ourians.

    After an overheating episode that seemed to result from some restrictions from the exhaust and doing a vinegar soak/flush I thought I had things going well again as temp improved and motor ran well for a 40 min. test run. After a couple sails where I run motor about 30min off mooring and 30min. back she began to run on only 3 cylinders and possibly just 2 as cylinder 4 was not firing at all and 3 was intermittently not firing. Compression test showed 0 on 4 and about 90 on the other 3 cylinders.

    After removing valve plate it was clearly stuck exhaust valve on 4 and intermittently sticking valve on 3. Unable to free valves I removed head and was able to free the valves and got to looking at exhaust manifold and piping and, well long story short I took the whole thing apart. My thinking, and after talking with Ken about it while ordering new head, valve and exhaust gaskets, is that to take her apart this far and not to do a proper valve job would risk a recurrence and that being the case I also took off the water jacket plate and will be cleaning that all up as well cuz it seems that the clogging likely came from that area. Also while cleaning water passages from block deck above it surely needed some cleaning.

    I am attaching a couple pictures of the exhaust for some input as to whether the design is problematic because the water input coming in at the top as it does and not further down toward the water lift muffler also the pipe where the hose comes in seems to reduce and ght that not create pressure or some other trouble? Also could running on three cylinders cause a lack of exhaust pressure sufficient to expel water and eventually allow it to ba c k up into cylinders as it clearly has? Manifold had water in it in the area highlighted in the recent newsletter about "exhaust reflux". . Also as I now have the manifold off and it looks pretty gross what is the best way to clean it up and get it ready for re-installation? Any way sorry to be so long and thanks for any thoughts.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Sculldog1; 07-10-2021, 11:23 PM.
  • Dave Neptune
    Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
    • Jan 2007
    • 5050

    #2
    Your water injection point needs to be below the high spot. Water can dribble down the pipe into the exhaust manifold and create a lot of moisture that the valves don't like.

    Dave Neptune

    Comment

    • Sculldog1
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2018
      • 42

      #3
      Thats what I think as well. I think if I bring it in right above where it goes to the rubber hose into the WL would be better. Not sure if this is how P30s came originally but am sure this isn't the original pipes as PO redid the exhaust some time around 2009. Any other design thoughts welcome. Thanks

      Comment

      • edwardc
        Afourian MVP
        • Aug 2009
        • 2511

        #4
        I agree with Dave. Your water injection is too high. It should be at least 4" below the high spot on the dry stack. You're going to continue to get water in the manifold with that setup.

        I would recommend replacing the water injection tee with a street elbow, followed by a length of straight pipe, followed by the water injection point.

        Here'a link to my exhaust rebuild album to give you an idea of how it will look:

        @(^.^)@ Ed
        1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
        with rebuilt Atomic-4

        sigpic

        Comment

        • ndutton
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2009
          • 9776

          #5
          Anti-siphon?
          Neil
          1977 Catalina 30
          San Pedro, California
          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
          Had my hands in a few others

          Comment

          • Sculldog1
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2018
            • 42

            #6
            Thanks EdwardC for the pictures it looks like a pretty simple remedy. As to anti siphon I don't really know whether it would be needed or not. Have you had good success with your set up and do I need the anti siphon if my set up approximates yours?

            Comment

            • Surcouf
              Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
              • May 2018
              • 372

              #7
              The worst is never certain.... and so I would recommend to take it appart first: the water injection may have a tube several inches long ensuring water is injected below the exhaust gases T branch.

              But having valve 3 & 4 sticking is 99% water coing backwards. So the worst is almost certain.
              Surcouf
              A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979)

              Comment

              • edwardc
                Afourian MVP
                • Aug 2009
                • 2511

                #8
                Originally posted by Sculldog1 View Post
                Thanks EdwardC for the pictures it looks like a pretty simple remedy.
                You're quite welcome.

                Originally posted by Sculldog1 View Post
                ... As to anti siphon I don't really know whether it would be needed or not...
                Yes, it is needed. I have one, purchased from our host here.
                After shutdown, a hot engine cools, cooling the gases in the exhaust manifold. This causes them to contract. Without an anti-siphon valve, this suction can pull water back into the manifold. A large volume in the riser can help mitigate this, but an anti-siphon just before the water injection point completely prevents it.

                Originally posted by Sculldog1 View Post
                Have you had good success with your set up ...
                I installed it in early 2011, and it has gone 10 years and almost 2000 hours of runtime without any trouble.
                @(^.^)@ Ed
                1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
                with rebuilt Atomic-4

                sigpic

                Comment

                • joe_db
                  Afourian MVP
                  • May 2009
                  • 4527

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dave Neptune View Post
                  Your water injection point needs to be below the high spot. Water can dribble down the pipe into the exhaust manifold and create a lot of moisture that the valves don't like.

                  Dave Neptune
                  My water injection looks like the photo above, but I have an internal pipe that sticks down about 3 or 4 inches to carry water past the T junction.
                  Moyer sells something similar:
                  Joe Della Barba
                  Coquina
                  C&C 35 MK I
                  Maryland USA

                  Comment

                  • Dave Neptune
                    Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 5050

                    #10
                    Joe those work very well however my "preference" is for the injection to be at least 4" or more below the bottom of the exhausts "high point" or more. This is to avoid the bit of splatter and splash that happens at idle that can leave moisture splattered back which can through evaporation and condensation work back to the manifold and valves.

                    Just got done working on a big PB with twin BBC's. He has been having a lot of valve sticking problems and has done the heads many times. Before I got involved he actually kept 2 spare heads as his valves kept sticking. It took a while but we got it figured out. He only ran his engines about 15~1600 and ran at displacement speeds not working the engines hard at all. The problem turned out to be not enough temp in the factory "risers" leaving moisture to work back. Now he still runs slow most of the time but he now runs her up a bit before entering the slip or mooring field and shuts down after running a hi idle for a minute or two. Seems to be working well this season by running her up a bit to blow the risers out better and the extra temp keeps them "dryer" before shutting down. It took many of us to get it figured out.

                    Dave Neptune

                    Comment

                    • joe_db
                      Afourian MVP
                      • May 2009
                      • 4527

                      #11
                      I have wondered how these would work - the water gets pointed down.
                      Joe Della Barba
                      Coquina
                      C&C 35 MK I
                      Maryland USA

                      Comment

                      • Dave Neptune
                        Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 5050

                        #12
                        Joe, my original exhaust was done with a 45* side out with a fitting similar to the MMI unit. It worked very well. The two exhaust systems I built I cut and brazed into a straight section at a 30* and placed it about 6 inches below the low of the high point. Never an issue unless the anti-syphon failed which it did many times as I had little room anywhere to go "up". My exhaust run was some 25 plus feet long with two high points and a water lift that I made out of fiberglass. I did away with the anti-syphon and went overboard with an open bleed line into a cockpit drain. Never a failure after that. The engine in my E35MkII was in the middle of the boat deep on the keel and my deck line was lower than the Cat 30 deck a big issue.

                        Dave Neptune

                        Comment

                        • ndutton
                          Afourian MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 9776

                          #13
                          +1 on the open anti-siphon loop. Nothing to clog, nothing to fail.
                          Neil
                          1977 Catalina 30
                          San Pedro, California
                          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                          Had my hands in a few others

                          Comment

                          • joe_db
                            Afourian MVP
                            • May 2009
                            • 4527

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ndutton View Post
                            +1 on the open anti-siphon loop. Nothing to clog, nothing to fail.
                            Sort of. My outboard telltale cooling water hose gets clogged every now and again and one time it shot off the engine.
                            Joe Della Barba
                            Coquina
                            C&C 35 MK I
                            Maryland USA

                            Comment

                            • ndutton
                              Afourian MVP
                              • May 2009
                              • 9776

                              #15
                              I've had my open loop for 16 years and never an issue. Mine is plumbed into the galley sink drain at a point above the waterline.
                              Neil
                              1977 Catalina 30
                              San Pedro, California
                              prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                              Had my hands in a few others

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X