water in oil while on the hard

[Jim Booth]

I haven't seen this one before

I switched over to Mobil 1 10-40 Racing 4T motorcycle oil last season. I have a note in my log book that says I also changed it when I layed it up in November, though I don't remember doing that. I do know that when I changed the oil to Mobil 1 it was murky and I remember thinking it was just cleaning out years of old gunk.

However,
The motor wouldn't start while prepping it for launch last week. Starting spray didn't work so I figured it must be an ignition problem.
But a friend helped me discover the reason was the oil pressure was too low so the switch prevented starting.
We pumped the "oil" out and it was mostly water! (Note to self, if the bilge is filthy with oil after sitting over the winter, it must have come from somewhere).

We changed oil three times to get it looking clean and then refilled with the 4T again. While running the motor to warm the oil at each change, we used a bucket filled from a hose and let the motor suck in cooling water.

After the third change, the A4 seems to start and run as normal.

The only source of water while on the hard should have been whatever antifreeze was left in the block when we pulled it out of Lake Michigan.
I know we have water dripping from the water pump area while running, and probably while sitting if I don't close the inlet through-hull. I also use an oil absorbent sock to pick up oil from the pan. I haven't traced down that oil leak.

So, my fears are
1) Water pump is leaking into the crankcase, as well as out of the pump.
2) Cooling water jacket is leaking into the crankcase.

Are there others? How to figure out what the real problem is?

We are scheduled to launch Wednesday (3 days away) but I'm hesitant to do that now. A little water drip from the pump wouldn't stop me, but if it's going into the motor that's a different story.

Thanks,

Jim

[JOHN COOKSON]

Sorry to hear about the mess.
When the water pump is driven off the accessory drive and the front and rear seals fail water can get into the oil.
Also I remember reading in the forum something about a soft iron cooling system plug that was used in the lifter area in some engines that fails sometime.

TRUE GRIT

[Dave Neptune]

Jim, is the coolant level still the same? You need to know if it is raw water or the coolant to start looking for a cause. If raw water is encroaching it is the pump most likely. If it is coolant first pressure check the manifold~an easy test and you don't need to remove it to test. If no joy so far time to check compression (head gasket) and then the block.

Dave Neptune

[Jim Booth]

This is a raw water cooled engine. In the several minutes of running during oil changes, the oil level didn't seem to go up but maybe it wasn't running long enough to get an appreciable amount of water in through the water pump. Is this a seal replacement job or something more serious?

We found oil leaking from the output shaft area, but I'll start another thread with questions on that.

Jim

[JOHN COOKSON]

This is a raw water cooled engine. In the several minutes of running during oil changes, the oil level didn't seem to go up but maybe it wasn't running long enough to get an appreciable amount of water in through the water pump. Is this a seal replacement job or something more serious? Jim

Yank the pump and replace the seals. Could be a start and stop leak. Maybe it leaked during lay up but isn't leaking now. Getting sort of far fetched but I can't think of anything else....... Maybe a pressure test of the cooling jacket?

TRUE GRIT

[Jim Booth]

Thinking more about the sequence, I think it is the water pump. We motored a lot last season, making a loop around the bottom half of Lake Michigan. As noted, I changed the oil at the end of the season and found it to be murky. I chalked that up to running Mobil 1 and cleaning out old crud. But odds are it was caused by water getting in the oil. I didn't run the motor after changing it last fall, so wouldn't have noted what I see now.

Oil pressure is still fine, so I hope/believe no damage was done in however many miles it ran this way.

How would I do a pressure check on the cooling jacket? I know there's rust under that plate near the top on the starboard side of the block.

thanks again,
Jim

[Whippet]

Pressure test

Hi Jim

There is brief mention of pressure test in the Moyer FAQ (link below)

http://www.moyermarine.com/faq/3.12.html

There are other descriptions in the forum. All involve blocking off one end of system to be tested - and fixing a bike/tire valve to a hose at the other with a gauge of some sort. Pressurize with a bike pump and observe if it holds 20 psi. Can do block and manifold separately

Failed water pumps would tend to show drips of moisture on underside.

As I learned, One of most common causes of water intrusion comes from water backing up through exhaust system. Can happen from excessive cranking - or even sailing with lots of heel

good luck

[Jim Booth]

Maybe this is good news

Thanks for the link to the FAQ item. I'm attaching pictures of my setup. I bought a gauge with schrader valve on it at Home Depot as N Dutton suggested and plumbed it in to the outlet end of the manifold. I just cut the hose and plugged it into the gauge through adapters. I think holding pressure actually requires the water inlet through hull to also be "good". I cinched it down pretty tight after an earlier test when the pressure was dropping pretty quickly, along with doing a more careful job of sealing the pipe fittings. Anyway, I pressurized it to 12.5 psi and after 34 minutes it was 9.8 psi. It seems pretty linear.

A surprise when I first pressurized it was water spurted out of the schrader valve. This is a Columbia 8.7 and the muffler lays flat behind the engine. There was water dripping out of the exhaust port in the transom earlier in the day (after running the engine yesterday) so maybe the whole system still had water in it. I don't think this boat has the problem with cranking too long and siphoning water back into the engine but I could easily be wrong about that.

So at this point the question is, "Is this good?" or good enough to launch confidently. If so, is my water in the oil issue most likely the water pump? It just doesn't seem so much water could get past the weep hole in my Oberdorfer pump. I'll probably replace the seals at least to keep water out from under the engine, and deal with dripping oil separately.

Jim

[JOHN COOKSON]

A surprise when I first pressurized it was water spurted out of the schrader valve. This is a Columbia 8.7 and the muffler lays flat behind the engine. There was water dripping out of the exhaust port in the transom earlier in the day (after running the engine yesterday) so maybe the whole system still had water in it. I don't think this boat has the problem with cranking too long and siphoning water back into the engine but I could easily be wrong about that.
It just doesn't seem so much water could get past the weep hole in my Oberdorfer pump. I'll probably replace the seals at least to keep water out from under the engine, and deal with dripping oil separately.
Jim

Agree that lots of water will not get past the weep hole in an Oberdofer water pump.
I'm no familiar with the exhaust set up on a 8.7. Did you over winter in the water.? Is there a possibility of a siphon during or some all of the winter? As a hot engine cools it creates a vacuum which can start a siphon if the engine is lower than any part of the exhaust system. Maybe this is why there is no water in the oil now. The siphon hasn't gotten started. Do you have a siphon break? If so maybe it wasn't working at the last shut down before winter but is working now.
I don't wast to bet the farm on this idea - just food for thought. You can be the ultimate decider whether it applies or not.

TRUE GRIT

[Jim Booth]

It's still on a trailer beside my garage since last Fall. We always winterize just before they lift the boat out by filling a bucket with the pink non-toxic antifreeze and letting the motor suck it through until the discharge is nice and pink.

Hmmm just read Don's water in oil notes.

2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed.

Our motor has a pipe nipple with a cap sticking out the starboard side of the block. I assumed this is only for draining water out when winterizing. This pipe rusted off in the middle of Lake Michigan. I patched it up by gluing a quarter over the hole in the block. Is that somehow related to what's described in Don's article?

[Don Moyer]

Water in oil

I need to correct something I wrote many years ago. We used to think that the weep holes in Oberdorfer and MMI flange pumps were large enough to eliminate the possibility of water getting into the crankcase in the event of a leaky water seal. We have more recently become aware of several cases where small amounts of water did make it into the crankcase in the aftermath of a leaky seal in both Oberdorfer and MMI flange pumps. The water apparently clings to the rotating shaft and finds its way through the oil seal and into the crankcase against all odds. Don

[Dave Neptune]

Jim, re your test a photo the manifold needs to be "isolated" and it does not look to be so. You have ONE end sealed and not the other. The test is for the manifold not the block and manifold~~you need to test one at a time and not include the pump or through hull in the test, especially for the manifold.

Dave Neptune

[Jim Booth]

Thanks Dave. I tried the simplest way... It's down to 1 psi at 8:30 this morning.

[Jim Booth]

several cases where small amounts of water

Mine had lots of water. So much that the first exchange was almost all water. I'm not seeing a big leak in my pressure test so far, although I need to redo it properly to be sure.

The motor ran fine even on our last day on the lake last season. We had motor sailed across Lake Michigan and then north to Ludington, back to Sheboygan WI and home to Waukegan as our longest trip, over 200 miles. I can't remember if I checked the oil after that trip. I believe the oil still looked murky when I changed it in November, but not like water.

[Dave Neptune]

Jim, you mentioned a straight run for the exhaust. Any chance that rain or more likely hose (when rinsing) could fill the exhaust.

Was you oil level noticeably higher when you noticed?

Dave Neptune