Sunset cruise thwarted!- Full choke needed to run

[sastanley]

So, while we await this nasty storm coming across the continent, today we are experiencing a little bit of Indian Summer here in Southern Maryland. Partly sunny and 75F on October 22.

I talked my beautiful wife into enjoying the evening on the boat for a sunset putz right after work. Been blowing 10-15 out of the SW all day, I figured we might even get a sail up to enjoy the evening.

Get the engine running & warming up seems to be OK, so we start untying lines. As I go to check it (I always give it a little goose to make sure she'll go before dropping back to idle and into gear) - she dies. - Crank for a bit..no go...I have a C-30 so I close the thru-hull....crank....crank...crank...hmmmph! (not really what I said, but I am sure you can imagine what I was really saying!!) - Pull the choke out, leave at zero throttle, and it starts!!! - runs rough, but it starts...give it a little throttle and bmmrrrphh...dies. Get it running again, full choke, no gas, it runs...open thru-hull....let it run...let it run...try a little less choke...dies...now at least with full choke it will start immediately...too much gas...it dies...any opening of the choke..it dies..so...you get the picture. With full choke, and easing up the throttle, I manage to get it to run in the slip at about 1,500 RPM. Anything above 2,000, and it comes right back down and runs rough around 1,100 RPM...anything off full choke...it dies.

Sorry honey!! No sunset cruise tonight...I don't understand my wife, but she has premonitions...she brought a book, so I pull out the tool box.

So, I decided it was a fuel starvation problem & yanked the carb and brought it home.

In the pic is a ball point pen..this thing next to it, came out of the main jet when I separated the carb halves and blew some carb cleaner around in it.

Not sure exactly what it is, but it looks like a little booger..kinda yellow, and soft...it might be a piece of teflon tape, which I have since learned I should NOT use for sealing fuel line fittings. So, to add to my winter projects, is to yank all fittings, and use Aviation brand Permatex on all my fuel line fittings..ah, what a distinctive smell that stuff has!

Thanks Don..your insight is invaluable..when I got home, I checked out some things about running on full choke...I remembered this post from 2005 - not directly mind you, but it was easy to find:

Whenever an engine requires full or partial choke to continue running, it's virtually always the case that there is a restriction somewhere within the carburetor, in most cases within the main jet itself.

Don

Perhaps we'll get one more nice day before I yank the rig and winter time gets here!

[tony201]

Good catch Shawn

I'm going to make sure that my carb doesen't have one of those pesky paper mate pens in there.

[rigspelt]

Stan, do you have a secondary fuel filter between pump and carb?

[sastanley]

polishing filter

rigs,

No.. I do not. The only filter I have is a Racor farther upstream. This certainly is a good testament that I should have one, however. I did have one initially, but I removed it this summer while messing around with other stuff and never put it back on. It was the wrong size anyway, and I tore up the inside of the fuel hoses getting them on the filter (one of the reasons I left it off) so, I probably had little rubber pieces floating around in the carb too.

I didn't take a picture of it, but the little bit of fuel that I dumped out of the carb bowl had some sand & grit in it. I musta had a bad batch of fuel or something???

I am gathering up my fall "Moyer list" & have added the polishing filter to that.

[Dave Neptune]

Years of hoses

Shawn and the rest, I have stated that I have worked a lot with carburators over the years and have seen many different things cause poroblems. One of the consistant problems was bits of hose OR teflon tape from inexperienced tinkerers messing with the fittings. The other was somewhat more difficult to get the owners to understand what happened. There were way too many times I would get a carb and find various types of "DIRT~SAND~DUSTBALLS~SPIDERS, ETC." clogging ports here and there, sometimes they would bring in the vehicle and the constant was NEW HOSES. Lesson LEARNED, always clean out the new hoses before installing! I run water~yes water~ from a hose through the hose then blow clean with a air gun. After cleaning I allow to completely dry and install. Somtimes it takes a long time for crude in the hoses to break loose and it never is at a convienient time especially in a boat!
The piece Shawn has shown would not get through a filter unless the cartridge had a hole in it. Be sure to handle fuel delivery related parts with clean hands and work area or you risk getting somethin in the lines.

Good catch Shawn, to often we don't actually find the culprit!

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

crud!

Dave,
I thought about this too. I am not sure where that piece came from since I have a Racor filter with only about 24" of fuel hose between it and the pump, and haven't purposely disturbed the lines. I can surmise that a piece of teflon tape was the culprit, although the consistency of that hunk o' junk seemed a little more substantial than the ultra thin tape. I only found it by back-spraying into the jet and finding that laying in passage next to the main jet (I couldn't get my jet out last year, and at the risk of ruining it in the process decided to leave it until it needs to be replaced.)

However, that brings up something else I didn't think about and didn't include in my story as I figured it was not related...but hindsight is 20/20 and all - I did not open the fuel line from the tank before starting (I forgot!), so, the crud could have been sitting somewhere (bottom of fuel pump bowl, bottom of the carb bowl??) and was disturbed by the inconsistent fuel levels in the system and made its way to the jet. I have made this error once before when starting (back in May) and the engine ran for about 10 minutes while it happily burned up the fuel in the Racor & mech fuel pump bowl. Then, opening the fuel line petcock and 20 seconds of cranking re-primed everything and I had not had any trouble with the fuel system since, until yesterday.

Anyway, when I took the carb home last night, I removed all the barb fittings (I have the Indigo PCV deal too) & scavenge tube and re-sealed them with Don's favorite stuff, the Aviation brand Permatex. I plan to do that to the other fittings as well & I'll blow the hoses out while I have them off just in case a piece of stuff works its way into the hose during this process. What is the trick for removing this new, thick A-1 type hose from those barb fittings!!?? Holy cow that stuff does not like to come off!!

BTW - one more question - Has anyone been able to get the priming lever on the mechanical pump to actually do anything? Mine just seems to swing freely with no feel that it is actually pumping?

Thanks for the tips!

[rheaton]

The priming lever on the mechanical fuel pump will only show resistance when it is not preasurized. Once you toggle it, preasurizing the system, the lever will become loose as you describe. You will see notes on that on this site, and I believe on Don's manual.

Best of Luck,
Russ

[Dave Neptune]

Removal

Shawn, the new hose and style of barbs are very good, HOWEVER due to the sharpness of the barbs removal usually tears up the end (adding crude to the line) of the hose and unnecessarily stresses the small fittings. I recomend that you use a razor knife and just cut as close to the fitting as possible then cut the bit that is left on the fitting loose. It is for this very reason that I use the older style fittings that do not have such a pronounced sharp end. The new style work great you just can't remove and inspect very easy.

RE Permatex, the aviation grade is an excellent sealer on both dry and somewhat oily surfaces however it is runny and can drip into the passages. If you use the av-grade it takes barely a drop to do an 1/8"NPT fitting be carefull there and you should have no problems. Personally I use the Permatex #2 sealer around the carb fittings, I think it is the same base compound just much thicker and easier to use on fittings. I even use it to save bowl gaskets from time to time if I don't have a kit.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

I have #2 Permatex also. I used it on the hot fittings for the exhaust. You are right, it doesn't take much of the av (#3)!

And I kinda figured that on the fittings..better to cut the hose a little shorter each time unless I was missing something obvious.

Thanks also to Russ for answering my Q on the fuel pump. When it wouldn't run, I was trying everything!

[roadnsky]

Shawn-
Put that polishing filter in too!
I did my Fall maintenance last week which included replacing both the Racor and the polish filter.
Just out of curiosity I cut it open and was surprised by the crud and particles in there!
I agree with Dave that some of it had to originate from inside the new hoses I installed...

[sastanley]

Gentlemen, Roger, wilco. I see the benefit. I have the carb reeking of #3 Permatex here in the garage with me...ready for re-installation. When I pick up the spare gaskets, etc, from Moyer, I'll add the polishing filter.

I have already (thru this exercise) realized the issue so no more teflon to seal the threads.

The install may not happen this weekend, as we are racing on the step-father's boat for the final big formal race of the season tomorrow. I'd love to bring the boat down to the club but Mrs. Stanley is giving me a little bit of grief based on the weather forecast...maybe better to leave her in her berth!

[jhwelch]

I use straight barb fittings, so instead of removing the hose from them I loosen
up the 2 clamps and unscrew the fitting from the carb or fuel pump.
That way I don't have to keep shortening my hoses and/or replacing them.

-jonathan

[sastanley]

update

The weather held out yesterday even though it was breezy in the morning.

Got some time in the afternoon to re-install the carb and take her out for a spin...everything ran great!