Thermostat & Winterization Question

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • whatjigg
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 14

    Thermostat & Winterization Question

    Just read the MMI write-up on the A4 cooling system and realized I hadn’t really understood how it works, and still have some questions...


    This has raised a few concerns about my winterizing approach.

    For the last 3 seasons I’ve been winterizing my late model A4 from MoyerMarine with raw water cooling by:
    - driving the engine for about an hour to warm it up
    - closing the raw water intake seacock and racing the engine for 2 seconds before shutting it off to evacuate as much water as safely possible
    - pulling the 3 drain plugs and draining the raw water strainer, then reinstalling the plugs
    - drawing in a gallon of antifreeze - closing the bypass off for about half the gallon to force glycol through the block
    - once again pulling all 3 plugs to check for solid pink
    - then drawing in a second gallon of antifreeze, also half straight through and half with the bypass closed off

    Based on my newfound understanding of the cooling system, is there a risk with this approach that an insufficient amount of antifreeze will make it into the bypass section of the cooling system (between the thermostat and the T-fitting)? My thinking is that with the warm engine, the thermostat would be open forcing antifreeze to pass though the engine block, limiting flow through the initial part of the bypass loop, and possibly trapping some water.

    This leads me to a second question - if the engine is cold and I close the bypass hose valve (right before the thermostat), would this stop the flow of cooling water entirely, or would the thermostat still allow water to flow through it from the block?

    Lastly, how is this linked with the MMI A4 manual recommendation to remove the thermostat during winterizing, and in particular, is it really needed when you can close off the bypass loop and force antifreeze through the block?
  • ndutton
    Afourian MVP
    • May 2009
    • 9776

    #2
    In my area we do not need to winterize so my comments here are not a result of experience. However, considering the fatal risk to the engine of improper winterizing I recommend following Moyer Marine's protocol to the letter. This is not the place to get creative and freelance. If Moyer's protocol says remove the thermostat, then remove the thermostat.
    Neil
    1977 Catalina 30
    San Pedro, California
    prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
    Had my hands in a few others

    Comment

    • whatjigg
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 14

      #3
      Thanks for the suggestion, agree proper winterization is critical, which is the reason for my questions.

      The procedure I’ve been using is what my sail club’s engineer follows, and he does 200+ boats per season here in Ottawa/Canada where temps can drop below -30°C.

      Comment

      • msmith10
        Afourian MVP
        • Jun 2006
        • 475

        #4
        I'm with Neal on this one. I think it's probably fine to leave the thermostat in if the bypass valve before the thermostat is closed while flushing with antifreeze. That being said, I always take the thermostat out because, as Neal stated, the downside of being wrong is too painful. Also, removing the thermostat yearly keeps the respective thermostat body studs and nuts clean so I know I can access the thermostat without difficulty in the future.
        I don't know what quantity of antifreeze is sufficient, either, but I use more than 2 gallons. The amount needed would vary from boat to boat depending on the exhaust configuration, but I always run 4 gallons through, which gives me enough time to simultaneously squirt fogging oil through the flame arrestor and into the carb (have to clean the arrestor prior to launching next season). I always drain my water lift muffler and make sure it's mostly antifreeze coming out.
        Mark Smith
        1977 c&c30 Mk1 hailing from Port Clinton, Ohio

        Comment

        • ndutton
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2009
          • 9776

          #5
          Originally posted by whatjigg View Post
          The procedure I’ve been using is what my sail club’s engineer follows, and he does 200+ boats per season here in Ottawa/Canada where temps can drop below -30°C.
          Unless the club's engineer is knowledgeable on the details of the Atomic 4 cooling system, its bypass function and dual stage thermostat, how many other boats he does is a questionable endorsement. You'd be surprised how many professional marine mechanics have no clue about anything on an A4.

          It's possible your club engineer is fully knowledgeable but also possible he's not. We don't have to wonder with Don Moyer. Ultimately it is your boat, your choice and your risk.
          Neil
          1977 Catalina 30
          San Pedro, California
          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
          Had my hands in a few others

          Comment

          • whatjigg
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2017
            • 14

            #6
            If I am to remove the thermostat, what's the easiest way to do it? My engine is exactly like this one...

            Comment

            • Surcouf
              Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
              • May 2018
              • 372

              #7
              2 bolts obvious on thermostat, 2 on flex hose. A serious session of jiggling on the small piece of hose required to lift housing
              Be sure to have Permatex and the right gasket
              Attached Files
              Surcouf
              A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979)

              Comment

              • whatjigg
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 14

                #8
                Just came across this thread where Don Moyer suggests using the small ball valve on my engine, or a c-clamp on the bypass hose, to winterize without removing the thermostat...
                "To avoid removing the thermostat housing each year and re-torquing the nuts, many people simply clamp off the by-pass hose with a small "C" clamp. Your aftermarket thermostat has a small bleed hole in the valve which will allow the water/antifreeze in the block and head to pass through slowly."


                Did some more digging and found this, from Don Moyer:
                "In actual practice, thermostats don't ever seem to completely block off the flow of coolant through the block and head. In the case of OEM thermostats, they simply don't close that tightly, and in the case of our MMI aftermarket thermostat kits (which do close more tightly), the thermostats have a small bleed hole in the movable valve assembly."


                Based on the above, I would think that with a warm engine the thermostat will be partially open, and with the bypass ball valve closed, antifreeze will flow through the engine block, and with the bypass ball valve opened, antifreeze will also flow through the bypass loop.

                With a cold engine, and the bypass ball valve closed, antifreeze will still flow through the engine block and push through the bleed hole on the thermostat. And obviously with the bypass valve opened, the flow will be almost entirely through the bypass loop.

                In other words, regardless of whether the engine is cold or warm, it can still be winterized with the process I laid out above without removing the thermostat every season. I think the only state that would not work is if the engine is hot with the thermostat fully open, which would largely prevent antifreeze from flowing through the bypass loop.
                Last edited by whatjigg; 10-19-2020, 12:41 PM.

                Comment

                • whatjigg
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 14

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Surcouf View Post
                  2 bolts obvious on thermostat, 2 on flex hose. A serious session of jiggling on the small piece of hose required to lift housing
                  Be sure to have Permatex and the right gasket
                  Thank you! Ok I guess no easy way to git er out. And yes, lots of jiggling necessary haha. Does it need a new gasket every time the T is removed? What’s the permatex for in this case if there’s already a gasket?

                  Comment

                  • JOHN COOKSON
                    Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 3501

                    #10
                    Originally posted by whatjigg View Post
                    And yes, lots of jiggling necessary haha. Does it need a new gasket every time the T is removed? What’s the permatex for in this case if there’s already a gasket?
                    What's all this jiggling stuff?
                    Cut the hoses off the barbs* and scrap them after using them as length cutting guides for the new hose. New hose is flexible and will pop right in. You're probably going to have to do this anyway otherwise the thermostat will not clear. Believe it or not you will save time, effort, and frustration doing it this way. Been there, done this more than once.
                    New gaskets are always advisable. If you stick the gasket to the theromstat housing with permatex the gasket will in theory stick to housing not the head and be easier to remove at the next disassembly. This well will also help in lining up all the holes during reassembly. Is this a real benefit? I don't know. Up to you

                    ex TRUE GRIT

                    *Cut a slit through the hose to the barb rather than across the hose.
                    Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 10-19-2020, 08:51 PM.

                    Comment

                    • whatjigg
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 14

                      #11
                      Do I need 1/2” or 5/8” ID hose to replace those two segments?

                      Comment

                      • JOHN COOKSON
                        Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 3501

                        #12
                        1/2"

                        ex TRUE GRIT

                        Comment

                        • Marian Claire
                          Afourian MVP
                          • Aug 2007
                          • 1769

                          #13
                          Be careful when cutting the hose off. I have been to aggressive or just clumsy in a tight space and ended up damaging the fitting. Then the hose will not seal and the fitting has to be replaced. DAMHIK.

                          Dan
                          S/V Marian Claire

                          Comment

                          • whatjigg
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 14

                            #14
                            Good point, they are brass fittings. I’m thinking I’ll use something like this wire reinforced tubing..

                            Comment

                            • Dave Neptune
                              Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 5050

                              #15
                              No wire hose on the cooling!!!

                              Don't use wire tubing!! If you want to spend money buy the best, blue Goodyear silicone. It's far more pliable and stronger for what you are doing. The wire hose will rust and poke your fingers while looking bad.

                              Re filling the block and manifold for winterizing, with the t'stat it will just take a bit more time and care to be sure that the block is full bleeding through a small hole in the t'stat (the bleed hole) and without just poor it in.

                              Personally I think splitting and replacing the crossover hose like John suggests would be the easiest.

                              Dave Neptune

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X