Freaking hypocrites

[ndutton]

Ain't it great waking up on a Saturday morning to an email from Practical Sailor that just frosts your cookies?

I'll bet there isn't a single one of us on this forum who hasn't been derided by diesel snobs, dock experts and the likes over the propulsion fuel in our boats. "Atomic Bomb", "turn the key and BOOM" and "get a diesel" are all too common. That we are a civilized bunch is the only thing protecting them from a flattened nose.

And here comes Practical Sailor with their expert views on cooking fuel. Two excerpts:

BUTANE
Butane, usually seen in small pressurized cans, is ok for small boats and in rough conditions. A standard 8-ounce can has a tidy flame that will burn on high setting for more than three hours and produce in the process about 7,000 BTUs.

Gee, no mention that butane is heavier than air, is stored under pressure and in the event of a leak the entire volume is expelled and the vapor settles in the bilge. With the slightest ignition source it can blow the boat to smithereens. That's exactly the knock on gasoline and what killed the Atomic 4 engine sales three decades ago. Seems like a convenient omission to me.

PROPANE
The most popular fuel in the last decade or two has been propane. Sailors used to be afraid of it because, being heavier than air, it can collect in the bilge if there's even a minute leak. Like butane, you might consider propane as concentrated natural gas. It requires very, very careful installation. It yields 2,550 BTUs per cubic foot, is cheap, and is available most anywhere in the world. The ultimate is a boat well equipped with a propane stove and air and water heaters, AND a first-rate sniffer.

Well, at least they admitted propane was heavier than air but considering it as concentrated natural gas? That's crazy. Natural gas is lighter than air so doesn't pose the risk of propane, the same risk that terrifies them about gasoline.

The line that set me off to a weekend of grumbling (apologies to the Mrs.) was

"The ultimate is a boat well equipped with a propane stove and air and water heaters"

The ultimate? Really? Seems they're a lot more comfortable with gasoline than they realize or will ever admit.

[capnward]

Atomic Bomb, my #@%

Thanks Neil,
I've lost count of the number of times I've been told my engine is a piece of crap, how gasoline is like storing dynamite on your boat, and diesels or outboards are the way to go if you have any sense. Atomic 4s are hopelessly obsolete, they make good anchors, etc.
Eventually they mention their propane stove. (I love my alcohol Origo. I have a diesel heater with its own tank, which I rarely use.)
I am reminded of the car talk guys talking to someone with a diesel car and asking, "which do you like better, the noise or the smell?"
Yes, diesels get better mileage, but that's about it. I might spend $200 more a year on fuel, but it is totally worth it. I like running quietly with no diesel fumes. My customers appreciate it. I sometimes hear how diesel smell makes people nauseous. I mean, life is too short.
Yes, gasoline can be dangerous but that's if you have a leak, no ventilation, and don't sniff the bilge. Gasoline is easy to detect with the human nose.
Yes, diesels are easy to maintain, until they aren't. I especially like never having to purge air out of a fuel line by mouth siphoning.
For boats like ours, A4s still rule!

[joe_db]

I have posted before about the "gasoline is dangerous" speech I got from a Cabo Rico 38 skipper right before he fished a clorox bottle of gasoline out of his engine room to fill his dinghy engine and put some water on his propane stove

[Al Schober]

My carb packs up and I can clean it on board with no shoreside support - have even done it under way, but it's easier to have a spare carb. Anyone ever rebuilt a diesel injection pump under way? How about cleaned injectors?

[joe_db]

Well when I was about 12 an injector died on our 4-107, so we unbolted it, I rowed ashore, found a new one at a shop, rowed back, and we put it back on
That old all-mechanical Westerbeake was about as reliable as a sledgehammer. That was the only issue it ever had. Modern electronic diesels..........well you aren't fixing them with a wrench

My carb packs up and I can clean it on board with no shoreside support - have even done it under way, but it's easier to have a spare carb. Anyone ever rebuilt a diesel injection pump under way? How about cleaned injectors?

[ndutton]

I posted this on another forum to remind the dieselites

What are the chances I'll ever subscribe to Practical Sailor, digital or print? In fact, this morning I replied to their email and forwarded the posting I made on the Moyer forum and unsubscribed from future emails.

Consider the following:

• It's completely inconsistent to be comfortable with propane aboard and terrified of gasoline. If this is any of you, you're not being honest with yourself.
• No need to bleed a fuel system - EVER and no telltale stench that comes with bleeding.
• Quiet, smooth power. Really quiet. Dock mates walking by think my bilge pump is running, not the engine (true story).
• Easy starting in all temperatures.
• No black soot on the transom.
• Complete array of parts and castings readily available including short blocks, long blocks, NEW blocks and complete new engines. All it takes is one phone call.
• Same source has stainless waterlifts, stainless standpipes, gauges, recessed instrument panel enclosures, engine monitoring systems.
• Expert troubleshooting advice is one phone call away. Don Moyer answers the phone himself and his parts guy is equally expert.
• My gasoline powered boat is 40 years old, has the original engine that's never been apart, starts instantly every time, does not consume oil, no fires and no KABOOM.

[BunnyPlanet169]

OK - I'll put on my asbestos suit and say this:

I don't see the connection in the PS quotes you provided and gasoline engines. I understand the sensitivity, and I've done a little A4 defense as well, but I don't see that PS made the connection.

I subscribe to PS, and on whole I think it's a pretty good publication.

I also believe there is a very real difference between their marketing group and their research and testing group.

The R&T group does some nice, thorough work (like multi-year bottom paint testing, gasoline and diesel additive testing, rope clutches, etc). They don't take ANY advertising dollars, so there is no editorial worry about what they might find. The R&T group seems to have editorial control over the magazine.

The marketing group sends out meaningless email, no doubt. I do not choose to receive it.

[ndutton]

The connection is their recommendation for a fuel onboard with similar properties (vapor heavier than air, similar energy per volume) as gasoline yet gasoline is universally feared while propane is recommended. If anything, propane is more dangerous because it's stored under pressure.

Not expecting much but I just received an email from Practical Sailor customer service saying my comments have been forwarded to their editor. Stay tuned . . . .

[rickandlee]

Go Figure

There were probably close to 500 boats watching or participating in the races today. 499 were gas powered (one turbine powered) and the only fire I saw was below a steak on a grill.

[romantic comedy]

Neil, I thought the very same thing when talking, reading, or hearing about what fuels people have on board.

guys will freak out at the thought of having a gas engine that will blow up. Then they will show you a cute little butane stove they love to cook with. Bottles stored below. Of course the same goes for propane. I see mainly the bottle mounted on the stern rail. I expect that is because I cant see the below deck, or locker mounted installations.

But I have had that exact visceral response. "***, gas is bad but propane and butane is safe?"

I am glad that you emailed PS and expect they will give you an interesting and well thought out reply. I look forward to it.

I think bringing up the merits of gas engines versus diesel engines muddies the water though. I would try to stick to fuel and its storage. KISS principle
...

[ndutton]

The merits of a gas engine post was for the benefit of a forum frequented by dieselites (Catalina 30 Yahoo forum) some of whom have a history of A-4 derision and was reproduced here. As you suggested it is not part of the discussion with Practical Sailor. My beef with them is purely fuel related.

I have low expectations on how the exchange will go but we'll see. As Practical Sailor sees themselves as an authority I don't expect any sort of mea culpa nor do I have any such goal.

[joe_db]

PS did a review of Alberg 35s and mentioned that of course job #1 was taking the A4 out and putting a diesel in. They got several angry letters explaining how bad this advice was financially - buy a boat for $20K, spend $12K+ on an engine, result is a boat worth $24K
IMHO a diesel upgrade is well worth it for taking off around the world or across oceans, if for nothing else but the range*, but for coastal cruising with the occasional offshore trip the $$ do not come close to adding up. I also have made good use of the A4s friendliness to field expedient repairs.

* our old wood diesel ketch would go about twice as far on the same fuel as my A4 powered boat does now. Usually not a big deal, but after day 3 of floating around in no wind with Bermuda 200 miles ahead and 100 miles of gas left, I did suffer range envy.

[ndutton]

PS editor responded in agreement the article implied a message that was not intended. Strikes me as a reasonable conclusion.

[romantic comedy]

sounds like you will be able to sleep now. Maybe not as soundly as you want, but still sleep.

Do you think they will mention this topic in an issue?

[ndutton]

My understanding is their marketing arm tries to attract subscribers by email with an old article attached. Such was the case last Saturday. The article was older than the editor even remembered and considering the blowback I doubt there's any interest in resurrecting it.

Joe mentioned the Alberg 35 article from three years ago. I don't think that will see the light of day again either. This is what happens when they try to establish themselves as an authority. No matter how knowledgeable they might be, there's always someone who knows a little more. Can't be avoided.