A real world ethanol observation

[sastanley]

Joe, you bring up a decent point, but I also don't like stopping at the local high-volume station either when there is a delivery truck there..I always wonder what they are stirring up as they dump 4,000 gallons into the tank underground.

[Ball Racing]

Kinda easy to find out about problems with ethanol.
Go to any lawn & garden dealer that services products and has been in business for more than 10 years.
Go to you trusted outboard mechanic.
Ask them has their business picked up in the last 2-3 years since the advent of the ethanol.
Around here the piles of weedeaters, and chain saws are stacked to the roof because of the carbs ruined.
They say they can't even rebuild them, because of the junk that is in the super small passage ways, and the etching and corrodding.
The fuel lines are just plain disappearing the tanks.

The mechanics are so tired of the problems they highly recommend non-ethanol fuel, and usage of any good additive you can find, and run the gas out the carb.
They would make more money if you left the junk in there, but they have had their fill of the destructiveness of the new fuels.

I had some old non E10 fuel around until last season for the weedeater that has service us for the last 6 years, last year I finally used it with th eE10, after sitting the winter this spring it was dead, put a kit in the carb, better, but you should have seen the mess in there.
I had no wire or pick to remove the fine stuff in the small holes.
A new carb $60-80 - new weedeater $100
I got a new weedeater, and put fresh fuel with startron additive, and try to run the gas out between uses.
We'll see what spring gives.


The diaphrams are hardening up way fast in the carbs.
Read a bottle of ethanol treatment, most say "HELPS" prevent the phase seperation.Didn't say it would cure it 100%, and also state once it seperates, there is no putting it back into a mix, no mater what you add.
The WAWA here the other day had 23 claims of bad fuel in 4 hours after people filled up.
One guy had filled his Fiberglass Center Console boat up, he went fishing in the bay, and was stranded.
He took the fuel sending unit out, and eyed into the tank and saw the differnt colored mess, he ran a hose into the "cleaner" level, and limped back in.
He went back to wawa and they here fill out this card-claim, you are the 23rd person this moring.
Some cars made it out the parking lot and that was it.



Kinda like saying smoking 10 packs of cigarettes isn't as bad as people are saying, because you smoke like that,
but don't feel symptoms yet, and people all around you that do are coughing up a lung and you want to blame it on them not getting a flu shot.

[67c&ccorv]

To Corvette & all ,

In the late 60's /early 70's foreign car makers , especially the Japanese , dealt with tightening emission standards in this country by re-tooling and re-designing engines in such a way as to make the combustion more complete and efficient. The U.S. companies tried to deal with the problem at the tailpipe , after the fact so to speak. On came the wave of imported cars and those cute little Datsun trucks , dealing a blow to the U.S. auto industry from which it never will recover.

And now , instead of getting out from importing oil from countries that hate us by drilling our own vast reserves , we grow and process corn into an inferior fuel product , burning more and more petroleum in the ethanol making process , then slapping a huge taxpayer funded subsidy on the stuff in order to stimulate sales.

Ass backwards is as ass backwards does , as Gump would say.

Little by little , we our bleeding our economy to death.

US auto makers responded to the challenge from the Japanese auto makers in the 1970's...they were behind on the 8-ball but I think they rose to the challenge - just as they are doing now.



It's too bad the American consumer did not - demanding gas-guzzling SUV's and ignoring the smaller more fuel efficient American products throughout the 80's and 90's.



There is no...repeat no...modern industrial agricultural process that does not require a large expenditure of fossil fuels to produce a product. Whether it comes from tilling - seeding - spraying - harvesting or transporting the product to market - they all require a massive investment in petroleum products and by-products.



There is no free lunch when it comes to producing food on the scale that the North American food producers do.



Even in recession, the US economy is the largest, strongest and most stable currency in the world...that's why investment bankers continue to demand and hold US bonds more than any other in the world.

[pallen58]

I have a good source of "real" gas nearby. I drained and sort of cleaned the tank early this year. I put 6 1/2 gallons of gas in the tank after that. I have a 15 1/2 gallon tank on the boat. As winter gets closer I have to decided what to do. I don't want to fill the tank and treat it, it would take me 5 years to burn that much gas. I treated the gas with Sea Foam before I put it in. In this forums opinion can I just leave what is in there over the winter or should I drain it and get as much out as I can and start fresh next season.

[Mark S]

I always keep a full tank during winter storage. I think it keeps condensation out of the tank. I treat it with the blue Sta-bil in accordance with their winter directions. The gasoline shows no ill effects in the spring. If we don't stray too far from home, the tank lasts until August. If we take a trip or go cruising, it's gone sooner. Others may disagree.

Mark

[TomG]

I'm not sure if this is an ethanol problem or a fuel system problem, but I had a real mess today.

This is my first year with this boat and prior to my buying it, the boat sat on the hard for nearly two years. I expected the fuel system to have issues when I bought the boat and I was not disappointed. In April of last year, I drained and completely cleaned and rinsed the tank. The tank is a refit poly gas tank. All the lines were replaced when the tank was replaced. When I cleaned the tank, I also purged all the lines. I installed a Racor gas/water seperator filter and have a polishing filter just prior to the carb. I put in fresh fuel with a little Sta-bil in it as well.

My A-4 has run superbly since getting it back in the water in May. I mean flawlessly. Two seconds on the starter and she roars to life. Without fail.
Until early this week...

I tried to start the motor on Tuesday and oddly, she didn't want to start. In fact, she sputtered and quit after just a few seconds. It was very unlike her. Maybe it was my imagnation, but I swear the smell reminded me of going to the time trials to Indianapolis. It smelled like methanol. Today I had a chance to troubleshoot the engine. I tried cranking and no luck. I could smell fuel, but it smelled like methanol again. I pulled a plug and it was kinda wet and it was warm (like it had been sparking). Knowing how much care I have used with the fuel system, I didn't think fuel quality was an issue, but I drained the water seperator just for something to do. It was full of water. Here is what was drained from the water seperator:



And here is the inside of the water seperator:


As you can see, there is already corrosion on the inside of the water seperator and the fuel quality is awful. I find it hard to believe that E-10 could've caused this much of a problem in just 6 months. The fuel fill tank opening is brand new, so I doubt it is leaking there.

Discuss.

[ILikeRust]

Ye gods.

[JOHN COOKSON]

What's in the boats tank? Did this problem start right after you refueled the last time? Did you mix Sta-Bil and something else such as MMO? The funny smell could be because there was\is water in the gas you bought and someone tried to emulsify it with alcohol or something else.

I guess what I am getting at here is did the problem happen on your boat or were you sold crappy fuel?

TRUE GRIT

[TomG]

John,

The tank is a refit job and is standard polyethylene. I cleaned it thoroughly back in April (and I mean thoroughly!) I did add some fuel about 6 weeks ago. I purchased the fuel at a high volume local retailer (i.e. not the marina) where I buy fuel for my cars. I added standard Sta-Bil Marine treatment (as I've done in the past.) It could be the fuel, but that seems like a stretch. It might be the Sta-Bil, but that seems odd too.

Here's what I'm wondering: In aviation, we like to "top off" the tanks to minimize condensation. I don't use much boat fuel, so keeping the tank full isn't something I'm keen on in case I need to remove the tank, troubleshoot, et al. I'm wondering with all the hot weather back in the summer if constant heat/cool cycle just finally drew in enough humidity to wreck the fuel. I also noticed a "low spot" in the tank's vent line. Maybe these two things are enough to cause these issues?

I have to work this weekend, but I'll drain the tank next week and see what I find. The amount of varnish and corrosion in the separator makes me think this has been going on for a good while.

[domenic]

I had the same problem you are having Tom. Ethanol ate a hole in my FG tank, and the stuff looked like fine black sand. I had to change the filter, fuel tank, hoses, rebuild the carb. After that she ran great...for just a few days.
I was ready to use my A4 as an anchor. The only thing left was the fuel pump.
I took it off, and with the hand prime, pumped fuel through the pump.It worked? I put it back on the engine, and with the had prime, she again pumped fuel. I took the fuel line of the carb, and cranked the engine over...THE PUMP DID NOT PUMP ANY FUEL? I talked to ken at MM, and asked him about the little rod the moves the pump.(the little rod that stickes out of the engine behind the pump.
Ken said they never ware out. I sat looking at the pump. The little rod goes in, and out. The cam moves it out...two springs in the bottom half of the pump moves the rod back in! I changed the two springs. I have been starting, and running my A4 every two day for 30 minutes for the last few months. If I just look at the starter she fires up.
What had me going crazy was the hand primer pumped fuel...I had not been thinking about the two springs.

[TomG]

Domenic, I have a four-year-old poly tank and I have an electric fuel pump, so I'm good there. I am certain my problem is bad fuel. What I'm not quite sure about is where the contamination is coming from. The fuel looks bad, smells bad, and the A-4, she doesn't like it. I put the gas in the boat a few weeks back from a 5-gallon jerry can. I didn't use all the gas in the jerry can and just checked it out in my shop. The remaining fuel is clean and bright, so I think the fuel system on the boat has a problem.

Thanks for your interest and keep those cards and letters coming!

[domenic]

Well Tom, the pictures of the fuel from the seperator tells a story. The problem is btween the fuel tank, and the seperator.
Un-hook the fuel hose from the seperator, and with a bulb hand pump, force fuel through the fuel line. Are your fuel lines rated for gas? If not the fuel may be eating away at those lines...thus making the color that you show in the pictures.

I know nothing about the electric pumps. The members who have them can help you there.

That gas looks like dirty rust water? Anyone have an idea about that?

[Mo]

Bad fuel.

Hi Tom,

That's just plain BAD fuel. You stated your tank is new poly, and I can't see that much discoloration and scum coming from a line....I'd pump the tank, purge the lines and change out the filters. If the water separator doesn't clean up easily it's time for a new one.

[ndutton]

I can't imagine that much water from atmospheric conditions or condensation in a poly tank. I'm really thinking water incursion from somewhere. I'd pour the next batch of fuel into an old Sparkletts bottle to examine it before it goes into the tank. If good clean fuel goes in and this crap comes out you'll know the issue is on the boat.

This is what cruisers deal with in Mexico fueling out of rusty drums.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I Don't Like The Look Of The Water Seperator......

I'd get some clean fuel well laced with injector cleaner into the rest of the fuel system ASAP.

I hate to think what the crappy fuel is doing to the rest of the fuel system especially the aluminum carburetor.

TRUE GRIT