Rudder hell

[nicholasdeem]

Well, I will admit it I got stranded on a sand bar when the tide went out, boat slammed hard with the waves, after dinner came back to the boat and found it hit so hard it, busted the rudder up through the top floor of the deck, the botttom of not so sure yet will have to investigate further, but I have splintered wood and broken fiberglass at th etop and she,s taking on some water.

I am thinking about the repair and would like to motorize the rudder to get rid of the dam, mount in the middle of my 2 ft wide deck right in front of the entrance hatch,like to find a motor with a forward and revese gear to asume the left right position but need to be able to controll the speed of it, and create a stop limit.

any suggestions or does some one have a close set-up,as such now?

Like to upgrade since I biffed it up, otherwise will just patch below and make a aluminum plate to repair the rudder mount.

Nicholas

[domenic]

I am a designer, and a boat builder. Having not seen the boat or damage, I am going to ask you to secure the damage. I have no idea where in the world you are, so you may not be able to get what you need.
If you are near a fiberglass/ resin store...like Tap Plastics, Buy a two part A B foam kit. Two or three yards of 1.5 oz mat, a gallon of resin, catalyst, and about four 2" or 3" throw away brushes.
The A B foam when mixed will expand, and get ridged.
Mic 1/4 of the foam kit, and pour it on and around the damaged area.
The foam will heat fast, and cure. take a small hand saw, and shape (You can saw the stuff) it so you somewhat have a smooth shape to fiberglass. Pour more A B as needed, amd shape...now you are ready tofiberglass.
With the brush apply some resin to the foam, put fiberglass mat on this, and with the brush apply more resin. Try to get all the big air bubbles out.
wait 30 minutes, and apply second layer of finer glass.do three layers.
You should have foam, and fiberglass clear to the deck. this should keet the water out.
You will need to get the boat out of the water, and onto the hard. after you do this, get a small hand grinder, and cut away the fiberglass, and foam...now you can do what repair needs to be done.

NOTE: IT NEEDS TO BE DRY WHERE YOU FIBERGLASS. IF YOU CAN GET TO THE HOLE (OUT OF THE WATER) PUT IN AB FOAM FROM THE OUTSIDE, AND COVER IT WITH WATER PROOF CANVAS. TIE THE CANVAS TO THE RAILS. DOES YOUR PUMP WORK? SAVE THE BOAT...YOU CAN REPAIR WHEN IT"S SAFE.

Hope this helps. Domenic

[nicholasdeem]

reply

Thank You so much Dom,

I went down today,I backed the boat up to the Marina, on the shallow side to the bank,tied off to the pillings,tide went out, got it dry ...but the rudder must be longer than my draft,it hit bottom and was angled at low tide so I could not glass it,I need to get the rudder straight, but unfortunately that happens at high tide, so I may try to remove it during high, what a job solo,
Have to disconnect all steering cables and plates ugh... but it seems like the only way I will achieve the rudder in the straight position.

Nick, got the info on the foam product see where your going, what about strength.

[ndutton]

. . . . . what about strength.

As Domenic is a designer and boat builder I think he will agree that the described repair is very low on strength, a stopgap measure intended solely to keep the boat from sinking.

It's my opinion you'll need to haul out for a proper and permanent repair which I think includes a new, shorter rudder. If it is hanging deeper than the keel you're in for a repeat of this episode in the future.

I can't understand what designer in his right mind would prefer the rudder over the keel in a grounding. Find as many underwater profile drawings as you can and see how many have an arrangement like yours. My prediction is zero. Trailer sailors don't count.

[domenic]

Neil is correct. The temp repair is to keep her from sinking only. Don't be afread to put a half inch of glass on. It grinds off fast.Haul out as soon as you can. Like Neil pointed out, your rudder should not be lower than the full keel, or spad keel. When you haul out, make a drawing to scale of the profile of the underwater section of the hull. What you want is the sq feet of this area. (profile sq ft.)
Your rudder should be 8% to 10% of the total lateral plane.
Please understand what lateral plane is:
If you took a profile picture of the boat out of the water, and cut the part that would be in the water...that is the lateral plane. If you don't know how to figure out the sq feet, make the profile drawing 1" to the foot. make a 1"x1" grid.
Each 1"x1" squares wil equal a sq foot. 8% to 10% of that sum will be your rudder area.
Measure how much of your present rudder is ahead of the rudder post, and keep that the same on your new rudder. (if you build one.)

Get the boat out of the water...damage can get bad fast.

[domenic]

Nickolas, if the sq feet of your rudder is close to the 8%-10%, cut the bottom off so it is above the bottom of the keel. Sand it good, and put about four layers of fiberglass on it.
Make sure the steel part inside the rudder is not broken lose.
My boat has a fin keel. I hate fin keels. When I haul out this winter, I am going to build a skeg in front, and under the rudder. Or, I may remove the spade rudder, and built a new one, and hang it on the transom. That way if it breaks, I can pull it off at sea, and drop in a spare one.

[ndutton]

Nick,

I found and studied the Grampian 30 underbody profile and unless it was offered in a shoal draft configuration and you have one, the rudder is NOT deeper than the keel, at least not on the plan. Except for the case your boat grounded down at the stern, the design rudder should have been spared.

If considering my previous suggestion of a shorter rudder, be very careful how you go about it.

True story: Ranger 37 hull #1 was a hot, go fast racer. Man, it looked like it was going 10 knots tied to the dock. The hull had an extreme beam, very wide and bulbous and pinched ends. The first day of sea trials she was hard on the wind and heeled well over when all of a sudden she had no steering, rounded up uncontrollably. This characteristic was repeated multiple times.

It turned out that when heeled well over the generous beam actually floated the rudder clear of the water. The quick-fix remedy was to lengthen the rudder.

I suggested you head in the opposite direction based on your description. After seeing the underbody profile, now I'm not so sure.

I'm relatively certain you have a bent rudder shaft though. Your description of the events and the pure spade rudder design leaves little doubt.

I wish you the best of luck. You have a big and potentially expensive repair ahead of you.

[domenic]

I have been thinking about the positon of your boat...stern to the dock.
Your keel has the ballast, it could be sinking into soft stuff, and the rudder may be on harder bottom. The rudder may not be lower than the keel. Do you have a haul out at your marina? If not do the foam and glass on the inside (just to keep the water out.) Find a long oar, and stick the blade of the oar about six feet behind the transom, and use it as a rudder. You will have to tie it down to the transom. When you move the boat, keep the power low.

Get the boat out of the water.

[ndutton]

One more thought Nick and I hate being the one to bring this up.

In a previous thread you mentioned you bought the boat for $700. Considering that's all you have in her, this damage could well be the death knell. The boat may not be worth the cost of repairs especially considering you were thinking of a complete refurbishment too.

Remember your car with $8K worth of transmission work and how you didn't want the boat to follow the same path? Well my friend, you may be at the head of that path right now.

Consider what you can salvage and sell off when assessing whether or not the repair is worth it. The engine, winches, lead, etc. should bring a fair amount over what you have in her, you'll be money ahead and can start shopping for a replacement.

There's not much sense in starting with a $700 boat, dropping a thousand or more in repairs (and I think considerably more because you have hull, rudder and deck damage) and ending up with a $700 boat after all the money has been spent.

Like I said, I hate to be the one but please do yourself a favor and make an honest assessment.

[domenic]

I agree with Niel...unless you are in love with the boat. The lead alone is worth $0.91 a pound. Most mast from $700+ used sails about $1000, than there is all the deck hardware.
Your problem might not be that bad if you can do the work. If a boat yard does it, they will have you for lunch.
What ever you do, get the boat out of the water first. If I had your problem, I can do the work, so I would.
Your hull is fiberglass, so I'm assuming the deck is. The fiberglass part is easy. Get a book on how to fiberglass. when you are out of the water find out how much it will cost to repair the rudder.
I understand the value of a boat has nothing to do with cost to repair. I would repair my boat even if the cost was greater than she is worth. I like my boat. It breaks my heart to see any vessel die.
When you fix a boat, you get to know every inch of her...every inch.

[ILikeRust]

When you fix a boat, you get to know every inch of her...every inch.

Amen to that, brudda. Ain't it the truth.

I've still got the scratches on my knees from wiggling back in under the cockpit, behind the engine. And I still have a few more of those trips left to go, to get everything hooked up...

[ndutton]

Your hull is fiberglass, so I'm assuming the deck is. The fiberglass part is easy. Get a book on how to fiberglass.

I disagree here.

I think this repair requires extensive fiberglass experience. This is a structural area of your boat and you're looking at hull repair, deck repair and rudder replacement/repair. You may have the experience, I don't know but if you don't, this is not the place to learn in my opinion.

My $0.02

[Mark S]

In a previous thread you mentioned you bought the boat for $700. Considering that's all you have in her, this damage could well be the death knell. . . . Consider what you can salvage and sell off when assessing whether or not the repair is worth it. The engine, winches, lead, etc. should bring a fair amount over what you have in her . . . .

Reminds me of my '67 Olds, the value of which now is that I learned from it to cut my losses early. Sad to say, but you should quit this boat now.

Mark

[domenic]

I guess I'm old school. The world when I was a boy always repaired everything, even socks. It was not a throw away world. We learned to fix what we had, and make it better. This new world throws everythings away, even people.
Messing around in boats is about more than just sailing off to pardise. It's about building who we are. Everyone on this forum has taken a rusted piece of iron, and stood with pride..."I fixed it! My A4 runs like new."
Don Moyer could have found a better engine than an A4...he didn't start of as an engine repair guy. Today we have Moyer Marine. Most of us have taken
old boats left to die, and breathed life back into them. We are proud of our little vessels, and who we are.
Remember when you first saw your A4? A rusted piece of frozen up iron. How often have we told others, "Don't worry, it's easy to fix...the members on the forum will help you."

Nicholas...go to you tube, and search...How to repair a fiberglass boat.
If someone else can do something, so can you. Rebuild your little ship, let it build you. There is more to life than the easy way around things.
I like Rust is rebuilding his A4. He is not doing it to save money.
I have great respect for Niel...but I don't agree with him on this one.
It's your vessel Nicholas. You expect her to take care of you at sea. Take care of her. Fix the problem. If it takes a year, spend it well.
What is the name of your vessel?

[ndutton]

Fair enough. Opinions vary and Domenic is entitled to his, as am I.

There comes a time however, even with the A-4, to move on. It's your money and time so it's your decision, not mine and not Domenic's. By your own words though, remember your car.

We wish you the best, please keep us informed.