water in oil while on the hard

[Jim Booth]

third pressure test

I changed the setup by disconnecting the inlet hose between the water pump and the motor and plugging it at the elbow down by the pump. This time I pumped it to 17 psi. It doesn't look like it's dropping much slower than before.

What's my next step?

After waiting some more, it's dropping much slower than yesterday's test. I soaped up the hose ends and the test connections but I don't see any activity there.

Restarted the test with 17 psi. Seems like something happened this time. Maybe I'm making the leak bad enough to find it.

[Jim Booth]

From Don's FAQ: "Exhaust system problems and head gasket failures have one important feature in common: It's practically impossible for either exhausted cooling water or water from head gasket failures to enter the crankcase without first passing through the combustion chambers. Therefore, both of these sources of water intrusion would logically result in poor running, or some other obvious evidence of water being in the combustion chambers."
.

"If there is no indication of water getting in through the combustion chambers or any other way externally, a crack is usually indicated."

The engine starts easily and runs fine, though it's on a trailer so I can't test it under load. So do I isolate the pressure test to the block by opening the path from the thermostat housing and injecting pressure there? I don't have a thermostat installed. Or plug that path and inject pressure at the water pump elbow?

Again from Don's FAQ: "2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed."

Hoping it isn't a crack in the block, is this the plate on the side of the engine opposite the carb? I had that off some years ago to reseal because we were getting water leaking out. I guess I should make sure I have soap suds on it to test for a leak before struggling to take it off.

It's hard to believe it was damaged over the winter since we did winterize it. And it ran fine all last season, even to the last day we used it. Where is the serial number?

Open to suggestions.

As always, thanks.

Jim

[roadnsky]

...Where is the serial number?

Jim-
Also discussed in the FAQ's...

FAQ: General Information
11. Where is the serial number on the engine?

• On late model engines, the serial number is on a flat spot in front of a "boss area'" in the casting of the block, directly above the oil fill tube over the flywheel housing.

• On early model engines, the serial number is on the front side of the block directly up from the starter.

[sastanley]

The plug Don Moyer is referring to was mentioned by John Cookson way back in post #2. It would be on the port side inside the valve cover, I think, and one way that water could get from the cooling jacket into the valve train/oil pan. You can run the motor with the valve cover removed, it splashes minimal amounts of oil...but you likely need to uninstall and re-install the carb to get the valve cover off...maybe someone already has a picture so you can do a visual of inspection.

Incidentally, the stbd drain tube that you had fail is pretty common, but unrelated to this discussion. I enlarged mine and re-tapped it 8-9 years ago. Some people remove the fragile nipple sticking out around the belt(s) and put a NPT plug in the block.

edit - the history provided on this forum is amazing..a 5 minute search, and I found this.

(rusted out plug in valve cover that exposes cooling jacket to valve train)

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82184&postcount=11

[Jim Booth]

under the valve cover

The valve area looks pretty good to me! From the picture in the link you found, it seems the plug would be obvious and I don't have one. My serial number is 201295.

I'm running the manifold pressure test now and it looks pretty similar to the earlier tests after only one hour, dropped about 1.5 psi from 17. I guess that's better news than if the same leak is on the block side. I'll do that next.

[JOHN COOKSON]

T I guess that's better news than if the same leak is on the block side. I'll do that next.

If when you do the pressure test water comes out the hole in the picture it's bingo.
Then the next question would be where is the plug and why did it come out? The threads look clean. Spooky.

TRUE GRIT

[Whippet]

pressure test

Hi Jim

Always possible that the valve and gauge set up leaks a bit too. I had a bucket of water on hand to dunk the test device to make sure no air leaking from valve.

[Dave Neptune]

Jim, you are now testing the block and the manifold. Isolate the manifold from one end to the other and test. Then test the block from the water pump inlet to the exit of the t-stat housing~~the block test.

Get the manifold checked first. It's an easy job compared to finding a leak in the block.
Second a compression check and/or a good look at the plugs may tell you if water is getting in from the head gasket.
Third test the block.

Dave Neptune

[Administrator]

Jim:

Just curious...

Somewhere along the way, did you inject "city water" at "city water pressure" into the engine to flush it?

Bill

[Peter]

I think the threaded hole in the picture is where the bolt that holds the valve cover on goes.

Is this also the hole where the block plug is - i.e. at the bottom of this?

I think not but you never know. I think it might be where the red arrow is pointing - right in the middle of the valve train.

Peter

[Dave Neptune]

No it isn't. The plug being spoken of is for a casting plug that is in the valve galley only on few motors. It was a steel plug that was exposed to the water jacket and thus the rusting out of the steel plug.

Dave Neptune

[Jim Booth]

good news

Sorry I missed the new messages. I was out of town for a wedding. Anyway, I redid the separate block and manifold tests and really cranked down on the hose clamps involved in doing them. Bingo! It held the pressure for hours in each test with no change. As I said earlier, the motor ran fine all last season as well as during the earlier tests so I don't suspect any head gasket issue. There isn't any rusted out steel plug in the valve area. I'm off to other events for a few days but my plan is to put it back together with a new water pump and rear oil seal to hopefully put an end to the mess under the engine. I'll buy a new compression tester as well just to make sure it's ok. I have no idea how the water got in there. I always let the motor suck water out of a bucket when testing it. Maybe my wife cranked it too long to start.

I'll update when I get it all back together.

[Whippet]

good test

Yep. I found my biggest issue with pressure test was the test equipment itself. Why i dunked valve in water bucket to make sure that wasnt source of lost pressure.

BTW, Laying blame at wife's doorstep would not go over too well on my boat - but this is an engine site, not Dear Abby. So good luck with that.