A4 Newbie Needs Help

[TomG]

Jason,

Like Ed and Dan said, it sure has the hallmarks of an "early" model. Here is a link if you are curious about early versus late model: Early vs. Late

It looks to be in excellent shape on the outside. It's hard to believe that is an early model head! It looks so new! I would look closely at the water pump. I was interested in the hard copper tubing coming from the output to the engine. That's kinda cool. If you don't have a spare water pump, you might consider upgrading to the Moyer pump and using the old Oberdorfer as a spare. Here is the Moyer pump:



Having had the pleasure of removing the water pump already, I would highly recommend the water pump extension bolt as well:


DISCLAIMER: I am very talented at spending other people's money!

P.S. Here is a quick link to the DVD/Videos page: Moyer Video and DVDs

[zellerj]

hose barb and throttle cable

what's the hose barb directly below the throttle cable? And speaking of throttle cable, why is it disconnected?

Jim

[ILikeRust]

So you say you know very little about engines - that is the first starting point/question. Do you at least have a fundamental understanding of how a four stroke-cycle internal combustion engine functions? Because that is the first fundamental hurdle of foundational knowledge to have before trying to understand the various systems of the engine.

The good news is that as far as water-cooled multi-cylinder engines go, the Atomic 4 is about as dirt-simple as they get. It's basically the same layout and function as an old Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine, just with four cylinders and a water jacket around the cylinders.

The even better news is that you've come to the right place. Git yerself that Moyer Maintenance and Overhaul manual, pull up a chair right here and ask away whatever questions you need help with, and they shall be answered!

We're here to help. Welcome aboard!

[tenders]

I agree, that looks like it's been a very-well-kept engine for an early model. (Or newer model, for that matter.) A little greasy but not rusty or leaky. What year is the Seafarer 34?

edwardc: my A4 with the 1:1 reduction is a 1969 Ericson 32, with about an 11,000 pound displacement. The current engine, from what I can tell, is significantly newer to the boat and was probably replaced in about 1980. I don't know if the V-Drive was also replaced, or if the old one was bolted onto the new engine.

Tom at Indigo points out:
Some V-Drive Atomic 4 models are direct drive in that they have a 1:1 reduction. Check name plate on V-drive for ratio. Engines with a reduction gear (not Direct Drive) are unique in that the propeller shaft coupling has four (4) bolts where as the Direct Drive coupling has only three (3) bolts.

My coupling has the three-bolt pattern, and the engine runs at about 1900-2000 rpm at normal cruising speed. It's a damn good thing the coupling only has three bolts, because with the coupling underneath the engine, those bolts and the shaft are (*%#@(* hard to get to whilst replacing the shaft seal, cutless bearing, etc.

[romantic comedy]

As far as black vs galvanized pipe is concerned (for exhaust), I used both. I just sanded the galvanized off, and painted it all with heat paint.

[sastanley]

More info on galvanized for the hot exhaust. I used galvanized, and for several hours, you did not want to be down below during the off-gassing process..Several hours equaling like 10-15. Just get the black iron or stainless...You gotta figure the cost ratio...if stainless lasts twice as long, it hopefully only costs twice as much. - I suspect my old black iron hot section was 20+ years old and still worked. I replaced it for the same reasons as Ed...to get a loop in the process to help prevent cylinder backfill during hard starting episodes.

+1 on the great looking early model with the 'tombstone' gear cover! She appears to be in really good shape on the outside!

[sailingchance]

The engine is definitely early model. I remember the surveyor (who was INCREDIBLE) mentioning it was one of the "original" A4's. The boat is a 1974 Seafarer 34CB but the engine is from the 60's I think. The previous owner owned her for 20 years, took good care of her, but abandoned her in 2003. She's been on the hard ever since. Even then, he said he never sailed her all that often, so I think the engine has very little wear. It started right up once they figured out the throttle cable.

what's the hose barb directly below the throttle cable? And speaking of throttle cable, why is it disconnected?
Jim

Jim, I "think" that's the fuel intake? I forget why the throttle is disconnected, but there was some issue there. Not long enough or needed adjustment...?

So you say you know very little about engines - that is the first starting point/question. Do you at least have a fundamental understanding of how a four stroke-cycle internal combustion engine functions? Because that is the first fundamental hurdle of foundational knowledge to have before trying to understand the various systems of the engine.

Nope. Not a lick. Electrical, carpentry, welding, fiberglass - got it. Engines... I know they need gas, oil and a ton of foul language. I'm pretty darned hands on and handy though so I think I'll figure it out eventually. With your help of course!!

those bolts and the shaft are (*%#@(* hard to get to whilst replacing the shaft seal, cutless bearing, etc.

I'd love to talk to you about how you actually got to them... I am about to change the packing in the stuffing box and would love to know how YOU pulled it off. I've got next to zero space for a wrench to turn.

It looks to be in excellent shape on the outside. It's hard to believe that is an early model head! It looks so new! I would look closely at the water pump. I was interested in the hard copper tubing coming from the output to the engine. That's kinda cool. If you don't have a spare water pump, you might consider upgrading to the Moyer pump and using the old Oberdorfer as a spare. Here is the Moyer pump:

DISCLAIMER: I am very talented at spending other people's money!

Tom - Thanks for the heads up/idea. I only have about $500 in the budget for immediate engine repairs/upgrades. It was highly recommended I spend that money on either fresh water cooling or electronic ignition (assuming I dont already have that, can't tell if I do or dont yet).

If you had $500 of my money to spend on engine upgrades/maintenance what would you spend it on - assuming the engine ran decently well, had good compression, etc. Keep in mind this will be a cruising boat, sailing from FL to Colombia in February.

Some more comments and observations on your photos:

1. The normal hard crossover tube of an early model engine appears to have been replaced with a pair of fittings and a hose.
2. The Alternator looks like an aftermarket one. Check to be sure it's not an automotive one (marine units are sealed to prevent the possibility of having internal sparks ignite any stray gas fumes). The external bolted-on regulator looks like an old mechanical automotive regulator. And the obvious splices yell out "replacement!".
3. Overall, the engine looks to be in very good condition, with little rust. This speaks of good care by the PO.
4. Looks like the OEM manifold has been replaced with one from Moyer, as indicated by the close-off plate on the unused flange.

Edward -half of this is chinese to me (which is really frustrating because I'm usually the handy man everyone turns to for insight) but, I think the alternator is a 30amp Motorola. original to A4 no? I dont know what the/a crossover tube is.

Thanks for galvanized pipe info. I didnt think of that. I'm going to look into stainless steel. might break the bank but it looks like the best option long term. Again, I'm planning to keep this A4 kickin.

Beautiful! The "tombstone" cover on the reversing gear, head, prestolite distributor with clips and oiler thingy??, all say early model. I believe I see the oil dipstick but I do not see the oil fill Hmmm. See if there is a serial # on the plate on the reversing gear cover so we can date it. If you have a condenser on the exterior of the early/prestolite distributor then you probable have points, no condenser = EI. I do not have the V-drive but does it look like this? http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html The next to the last part. Dan S/V Marian Claire

Dan, that looks the the v-drive. I will get the serial number this sunday and share some additional photos. Next week, I plan on taking a stab at a compression test I saw a youtube video and now I'm feeling bold! lol

[CalebD]

You are where you need to be.

Sailingchance,

I've owned a vintage 1967 A4 now for 10 years and have learned almost everything I know about it from this forum and I am still learning.
Your engine looks like the 'early model' as opposed to 'late model' which is important when ordering maintenance parts for some components.
I'm pretty sure I have an early model engine block but with a late model head and newer carburetor - in effect, a Frankenstein, or hybrid engine.
The oil fill on my early model block is between the tombstone tranny cover and the block where your picture shows what could be an oil filter???
Is that the throttle control or choke control line that is disconnected?
Your reversing or "V" drive gearbox is not in the first picture but that is where a plate should show the reduction ratio, if any plate exists.

Another vote from me to check the bottom of your gas tank. This is what I found at the bottom of mine...

[sastanley]

sailing chance...falling right into the ranks I see...nice work.

The first $50 of that $500 I'd spend on the Moyer Manual if you haven't found one about the boat yet. (Fortunately, I did..)

FWC & electronic ignition are all nice..but not right away necessities..Learn the motor, and then assess. I love my EI and my FWC, but I added them as time and money permitted..there is nothing wrong with a properly running points ignition system.

Carry on, good sir.

[TomG]

Tom - Thanks for the heads up/idea. I only have about $500 in the budget for immediate engine repairs/upgrades. It was highly recommended I spend that money on either fresh water cooling or electronic ignition (assuming I dont already have that, can't tell if I do or dont yet).

If you had $500 of my money to spend on engine upgrades/maintenance what would you spend it on - assuming the engine ran decently well, had good compression, etc. Keep in mind this will be a cruising boat, sailing from FL to Colombia in February.

Jason,

My advice is to ask some on here who've done what you are planning. Hanley just got back from a run down the East Coast from Martha's Vineyard to South Florida and back. Dan (Marian Claire) has made several trips to and fro the Bahamas. I know Mo sails a LOT and has made several longer trips. PT26 is running south now. Plus you've got Neil, Dave Neptune, Bill (he likes rust), Russ (he likes naps), EdwardC and a bevy of other very accomplished sailors here who can offer meaningful and thoughtful insight.

Let's ask them!

What say fellas?

If I had a $500 engine budget and a well-running engine that I was taking to South America, I'd probably spend it on spares and maybe a higher output alternator (depending on if you have solar/wind generator). A complete set of gaskets and seals, a carb rebuild kit, a spare water pump and impellers, fuel filters, spare fuel pump, a spare starter and solenoid, and a spare coil at the very least. There might be a few minor upgrades like exhaust pressure gauge, fuel pressure gauge that come in real handy if something should go amiss. That gets you real close to 500 bones. Mo (I think) just posted a great "what to carry on a trip" list. Might be a great place to start!

Without question, you need to lead off with the MMI A-4 manual.

[Marian Claire]

"sailing from FL to Colombia in February." February 2013???
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[sailingchance]

"sailing from FL to Colombia in February." February 2013???
Dan S/V Marian Claire

Yes Sir. in 45 days. The Mrs. and I are moving to South America. we've been delayed and delayed and delayed. The refit will be done by end of jan. then a shake down and we're gone. I'm going to crash course my engine (been putting it off) over the next 45 days.

[sailingchance]

What say fellas?

If I had a $500 engine budget and a well-running engine that I was taking to South America, I'd probably spend it on spares and maybe a higher output alternator (depending on if you have solar/wind generator). A complete set of gaskets and seals, a carb rebuild kit, a spare water pump and impellers, fuel filters, spare fuel pump, a spare starter and solenoid, and a spare coil at the very least. There might be a few minor upgrades like exhaust pressure gauge, fuel pressure gauge that come in real handy if something should go amiss. That gets you real close to 500 bones. Mo (I think) just posted a great "what to carry on a trip" list. Might be a great place to start!

Without question, you need to lead off with the MMI A-4 manual.

Dan, I've got the manual now and am reading it like mad to get familiar with what is what. We have 350 watts of solar and 500w wind gen on board. A honda 2000 genset as well. I'm not too worried about my lil 30 amp alternator as long as it works. Extra parts for things that need constant maintenance... I'm all ears. I will take advice from just about anyone at this point. I can thank you all enough for the insight!!!

The boat's been on the hard for over 9 years, so flushing the monel tank was one of the first things i did. i go the fuel out, now I need to clean up the inside of the tank.

There is still oil in the engine. So I think I'll try my hand at changing the oil this week. Cant screw that up too bad right?

Maybe I'll video it so you guys can get a good chuckle.

[Marian Claire]

WOW. The manual is great but most of the pics are of the late model, this link may help ID stuff on your engine. http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4010
This link for spare parts advice. http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/s...ead.php?t=6736 Just understand that some late model parts do not "plug and play" on a early model.
I have been accused of being overly cautious but IMO 500$ is not enough of a budget. You will almost burn thru that just getting rebuild kits for the water pump, fuel pump, carb and spare ignition parts. This assumes you have a mechanical fuel pump. Hand cranking does not look like an option on the V-drive set up so as has been mentioned you may want a spare starter. If you have or change to EI you need to understand this thread. http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=coil Or ask ndutton to give you a "cliff's notes" version.
Look forward to more pics. Sorry if this is a bummer but just trying to be honest. Dan S/V Marian Claire
Edit: For the record I have only made one crossing to the Bahamas/Abacos. The other three trips where from NC to the Keys/west coast of Fla and back mostly on the ICW but with several offshore jumps.

[ndutton]

I agree with Dan (Marian Claire). $500 is a little short for the type of trip you're considering. Along that line, such a trip in a boat you've owned a month after a 9 year abandonment seems sketchy to me too and I'm not talking about just the engine. Electrical, plumbing, rigging, ground tackle, thru-hulls - any one of these things can sour your trip quickly. I know you were impressed with your surveyor but he's not going along on the trip. Out there where it really counts you're on your own.

To address the question though, I'd gather up what the others have said, spare water pump, impeller or two, carb rebuild kit, plugs, points, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, coil, fuel filters, gaskets for water pump, thermostat, water jacket side plate, carburetor flange, exhaust flange and manifold. This is all small stuff but adds up in a hurry. Spare hoses and clamps too.

If there was one major component I'd carry along it would be a spare manifold. Yours has been subjected to a lifetime of salt water and it is not repairable or rebuildable. It's also difficult to ship to some banana republic.

This may sound odd but with the parts in hand, I'd install them and keep the originals as spares. That is the only way to be certain they'll fit when you really need them.

I'd also suggest the hand starting crank, much cheaper than a spare starter and could do in a pinch. The time to learn how to use it is now, not when you're in dire straits.

As for replacing the alternator, I would and carry the original as a spare. A general rule of thumb is to size the alternator @ 1/4 the combined battery bank capacity in amps. Although you have alternative battery charging means, with a dead alternator you won't get much engine run time and will stress your batteries in the process. The alternative charging means won't be able to keep up.

Before you depart at a minimum I'd do an oil change (I see you are), replace the shaft packing flax (again, I see you are) and an acid flush of the cooling system. Caleb's admonishment about the fuel system is critical too. At it's age and typically dubious previous owner contributions I'd replace the wiring between the engine and control panel. We've seen some nightmares around here and this is an area where a single connection failure can stop the engine cold.

On another front, when is the local drop dead time to leave on such a trip to avoid hurricane season? As I recall, you want to be well south before June 1 but as it's not my sailing area I'm guessing here. In our area the cruisers head south in November, maybe some stragglers by December. Beyond that you're asking for trouble.

edit:
I read back over your posts. In them I saw your skills resume` but nowhere did I see a mention of sailing experience, particularly offshore work. Do you intend to travel alone or with crew? How many crew? Their experience level?

edit 2:
It's my opinion the Seafarer 34's standard fuel capacity @20 gallons is marginal for a trip of this sort also.