Failed winterizing: what to look for?

[tenders]

So my boat's been on the hard in western Long Island Sound since late October, two days before Sandy hit. The engine was winterized normally in November...or so I thought.

The oil seal on my water pump had been leaking a little for the past few seasons, so last weekend was time to replace the seals. When I disconnected the raw water hoses, I noticed how clear the liquid was that dribbled out: there was no sign of the pink antifreeze I had pumped in last November. Odd.

Raw water strainer: no sign of any antifreeze there, either. Hmmm.

My eye fell on the raw water intake valve, which was OPEN, and then it hit me: I have a tee on that valve to which I hook up the antifreeze intake, and that valve is supposed to be closed whilst the engine is sucking the antifreeze. With the valve open, the antifreeze from the jug followed the path of least resistance, going straight through the valve and onto the ground instead of through the strainer, pump, engine, and exhaust.

So the engine sat full of salt water all winter. YIKES. I've been around A4s for almost 30 years and never screwed this up before.

Fearing the worst, I put the hoses back on the pump and started the engine. After a few seconds of cranking it started normally, for a season's first run, and sounded fine. I ran about three gallons of fresh water through the engine via the pump, no problems doing that. I checked the dipstick: there were a few bubbles in the oil, which may or may not be normal after a cold start (???), but they looked like air, not water. The oil wasn't milky and the oil level was fine.

My plan this weekend is to run it for an hour or so out of a bucket of replenishing fresh water, and check for water leaks, milky oil, and low compression. What else should I be looking for to determine if there was freezing damage?

[CalebD]

It sounds to me as though you dodged a bullet this time.
If she starts, runs and does not mix up the various fluids she is ok.
I wonder if the T-stat should be checked though.

[JOHN COOKSON]

What else should I be looking for to determine if there was freezing damage?

The water lift muffler???

TRUE GRIT

[tenders]

Good points both.

Thermostat: I've always been paranoid about precipitate buildup and overheating, so there is no thermostat and a bolt has been stuffed into the bypass hose since the engine was rebuilt in 1993. All the water goes through the block, and it always runs cold. Never had a valve problem that MMO in the gas didn't clear up. This arrangement makes it exceedingly easy to winterize, by the way, yet another reason to run sans thermostat.

Standpipe, no water lift muffler: this superb design is essentially dry once the engine stops running.

[edwardc]

Disconnect the outlet from the water pump (into the side-plate), and the outlet from the manifold. Put a gauge on one and use a pump to pressurize the other. Should hold steady for 5-10 min. This will quickly check your whole engine's cooling jacket for leaks due to freeze cracks with minimal disassembly.

Also, if you do at some point pull the thermostat cover off, check the ears for cracks between the stud holes and the thermostat opening, as this is the weak spot that cracks first in a freeze.

[tenders]

That's very clever.

How much pressure?

What would you think about stretching a balloon or rubber glove over the manifold outlet, inflating it from the hose leaving the water pump, folding the hose in half and clamping it to keep it sealed shut, and seeing how long the balloon/glove stays inflated?

[Mo]

fingers crossed

I've seen that once in a while around here. Start it up with water hooked up to it. Let it run for about 1/2 an hour (or more) with water going through it via you diversion hose and bucket of water...hose going to bucket. Once the engine comes up to temp, T-stat working well (if you use one) and it has made a few cycles shut down and check your oil. If there is water in the oil you will know you have a problem, if not I'd say you are looking good.

Pay close attention for a miss or steam out the exhaust as well. A cracked manifold can result in that. If you have a miss pull plugs one at a time to see which one...see how clean it is and if there is a bead of water on it. Keep in mind there may be two plug in a row that could be affected. Also keep in mind that no1 and no2 are generally cleaner than 3&4. What you are looking for is cleaned as is washed off...with compression it's actually getting a pressure wash...sort of. Normal looking plugs indicate all OK. This time of year, if you had oil in the top end for winter, there will be a residue on the plugs...if not be suspicious for sure. Water tends to clean them right off and there may be a bead as well. As previously mentioned, look for leaks entire engine, including exhaust and engine accessories.

You are in NY and there was a cold snap there this year as well. I have a feeling that some antifreeze may have made it into the engine or that strainer would likely be toast. It wouldn't have survived this past winter here....we had a week around 0 F. It's a wonder the strainer didn't break...very common...ensure no leaks there as well.

Edward mentioned pressure....20 lbs or so should be good to check it I'd be thinking.

[edwardc]

20 PSI seems a bit much. Our water pumps only generate a few PSI of pressure.

I would think 5 - 10 is plenty. I used a tire gauge clamped on a hose one end, and a shrader valve in a rubber tire stem clamped on the other. Then used an air pump to pump things up and wait.

[Mo]

Go with Ed on the pressure. I've not had to do it...yet.

[Mo]

Go with Ed on the pressure. I've not had to do it...yet. Saw a post once re: 20 ...will see if I can find it...neither here nor there as 5 or 10 would leak down as well.


Edit: Not to undermine Edward...not the intent.
...found this in: http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/s...+water+jackets

Not to undermine the well deserved confidence you have in your local mechanic, but here is a technical note that we prepared recently to assist folks who discover water appearing in their oil when there is no evidence that it is coming in via any of the combustion chambers:

Whenever water is discovered to be only in the oil, we recommend that the oil be changed at least three times before moving ahead to more serious troubleshooting. If the oil cleans up, we make the assumption that weather conditions were right for condensation or that some water may have splashed into the dip stick tube, etc. We hear of several episodes each year where small amounts of water have shown up in the crankcase, for which there is never any cause found and where (happily) the water never returns.

If the oil clears after the third change and you want more assurance that there is no problem with any of your cooling jackets, you can perform a quick check of your water-jacketed castings by pinching off the water discharge hose coming off the back of the manifold for several ten-second pressure checks. A flexible impeller pump in good condition can produce 20 to 25 psi when deadheaded in this fashion. If there is a crack anywhere in the water jacketed castings, this amount of pressure will usually force water back into the oil at a rate that should be unmistakable.

If small amounts of water do continue to appear in the oil after the third oil change, we recommend checking the following items (admittedly rather long shots) before moving on to more serious maintenance:

1) Inspect to see if a Sherwood or Jabsco water pump is installed on the engine. Both of these brands have the potential of passing a bit of water into the crankcase if their water seals leak and the weep holes in their housings become plugged with grease and crud. In this scenario, trapped water along the shaft of the pump can force past the second seal (the one preventing oil from coming out of the crankcase) and into the oil pan. Oberdorfer and MMI flexible impeller pumps have large weep holes in their housings, so they don't have this same potential.

2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed.

If no other cause can be found for water that continues to appear in your oil, we would have to suspect a crack in the lower part of the water jacket within the block. The easiest way to pressure test the block (without removing the head) is to first plug the outlet of the thermostat housing. Then remove the hose from the outlet of the water pump, and install a Schrader valve in the end of the hose, so that a standard bicycle tire pump with a built-in pressure gauge can be used for the test. A Schrader valve is the standard valve used on automobiles, and they are available at any auto parts store. The block should be able to hold 20 psi for an hour or more without a noticeable drop in pressure.

If you have an early model engine, you can perform a pressure test on your early model engine using a bicycle pump with a built in pressure gauge as follows:

1) Remove the water fitting from the inlet to the water jacket side plate, and install a 1/4" pipe plug in the inlet. If you have previously replaced the 3/8" metal tube between the pump and the side plate with a rubber hose, it may be easier to remove the hose from the outlet fitting of the pump and install a plug in the end of the hose for the test.

2) Remove whatever fitting is installed in the outlet of the manifold, and install a reducer bushing and a Schrader valve in that location.

3) Pressurize the block, head, and manifold to 20 psi. The cooling jackets should be able to hold 20 psi for an hour or more without a noticeable drop in pressure.

Best regards,

Don Moyer

[Dave Neptune]

Preassure.

Ten pounds max is more that good. Most water preassure gages run 7~10 psi when good and 5 is enough for almost all apps. To much preassure can loosen large inspection plates as on the A-4.

Dave Neptune

[edwardc]

Go with Ed on the pressure. I've not had to do it...yet. Saw a post once re: 20 ...will see if I can find it...neither here nor there as 5 or 10 would leak down as well.


Edit: Not to undermine Edward...not the intent.

Mo,

No offense taken. I gladly bow to Don's vastly superior knowledge & experience!

[Ball Racing]

You might want to change out your impeller,
if you went to winterize it and all the antifreeze went onto the ground and not go into the motor, there was nothing lubricating the impeller for as long as you ran it.

[tenders]

The pressurization idea was an inspired one, and turned out successfully.

I bought a $6 bicycle tube on Amazon and cut out a 6" section which included the valve. Using a regular hose clamp, I clamped that section on the manifold liquid output. UPDATE: the hose clamp is harsh on the soft rubber of the bike tire. What I should have done was use a few layers of the abundant rubber from the rest of the tire as sacrificial padding around the clamp, and I could have kept the valve around for future testing.



Using another section of the tube, I clamped off the hose that normally runs from the water pump to the bypass tee.



Then I pumped up the system to 15-18 pounds with a bike pump and waited to see what happened.



In a nutshell, nothing happened for a good 30 minutes while I did other stuff. So I'm thinking I did indeed dodge a bullet, as Caleb mentioned.

Actually, though:

1 - the hose clamps were pretty harsh on the inner tube rubber, so I ended up padding them with a piece of coolant hose between the clamp and the inner tube. I figured this out too late to be able to reuse the inner tube for another test someday.

2 - in a bicycle application, an outer wall of tire prevents the inner tube from blowing out as you pump more pressure into it. Practically speaking without that outer wall you can't get more than 18-20 psi into that tire before it starts to stretch big-time -- and allowing those harsh hose clamps to tear into the rubber.

3 - a hose clamp can't hold much pressure in a piece of inner tube that's just wrapped around the hose. I inserted a bolt with a smooth shaft into the hose to give the clamp something to squeeze around.

[Mo]

Good to hear there Tenders. Happy to hear it worked out for you....and good photo's.