Questions about purchasing used A4 engine

[alex.gomes]

Hello everyone! A quick history on my current situation:
I recently bought a 1974 32' Ericson with an A4 that had not been well taken care of. I knew much about sailing, but barely anything about boat engines, including the A4. Over the past month I have become familiar with her outside components, but not so much the internal workings. One of the most obvious problems was the corroded hot section of the exhaust. Figuring this would be one of the easier projects, (as long as the manifold bolts came out smoothly) I put myself to work.

I ran to the plumbing supply store and had them recreate the pipe section with black iron pipe and any brass they had in stock. After replacing it all I tried to start the engine, and noticed that it had seized up. My local mechanic said that the check valve was the problem, having succeeded in letting saltwater back into the engine, which froze her up. The only reason the previous check valve was acceptable was because it was so old and useless.

So now I am at a crossroads. The mechanic offered his services in helping me replace the motor with another that he has for sale. Just a few questions for you guys here though.
He is offering 2500 for the A4 in his shop. He tells me it has good compression and is in working condition, but I have been reading on here that there are specific measurements with compression and piston size that I should be looking for if I were to purchase this engine from him, and be satisfied with the price. What are these measurements exactly? If these measurements are in the manual Moyer offers from their store, I have that on the way so that would save you guys the time of explaining it all. What questions should I be asking him about this engine?

And for my old engine that I will be replacing, he offered to take it off my hands for the price of labor. I suspect I'll only really need him for hauling the engine in and out of the boat with a couple of necessary expert visits (500$ worth of time)

The old engine was in great working order before all this, so she must be worth more than just 500? I've been trying to find places with used A4s for sale to compare prices, but most posts are outdated and hard to pinpoint the exact condition of the engines.

Would I be better off buying the used A4 from the mechanic? Assuming it has good numbers, or is this guy just trying to take me? I see the rebuilt ones from Moyer, but my budget isn't allowing much more than 3500 for this project, which definitely limits my options. Also, if rebuilding the old engine after some saltwater intake is going to be a better option, that could also fit into the equation.
I REALLY appreciate you guys taking the time to look at my post. I've been a bit intimidated by all the knowledge in these forums, always seeming to miss something, and hesitating to post due to the fact that the knowledge must be out there somewhere, but this specific situation seems to call for some outside help. Thanks again!

-Alex

[Dave Neptune]

Plan "B"?

Alex, I bought my boat with the engine frozen tight and got a great deal. It had been frozen for some time. Now it has run for 26+ years and I just knocked it loose and did a valve job. It took me 3 days to get it running so I could move it.
You may want to consider this as an option and buy an additional $4500 worth of ligiuid bread for the next few years.
The mechanic will probably do the same with it and resell to the next "unsure" boater.
You will find all the help you need on this forum.

Dave Neptune

[Dave Neptune]

Oops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to the "Afourian" forum, I missed that this was your first post.

Dave Neptune

[dvd]

Alex,

You need to dfine "seized up" for us. I assume you mean the engine does not turn over at all?? It would seem strange for it to just seize up all of a sudden. Did it overheat for a long period of timebefore seizing up? Your post indicated that you replaced the exhaust and it just seized up. Try to give us some more specifics. You may not need another engine.
dvd

[Mo]

Welcome - Walk in the park.

Alex,

Lets get her turning over first...put the mechanic back in his cage for now and tell him you have to think his offer over. If you can figure out sailing you can figure out this engine. Rocket science wasn't even thought of when this engine was designed...although Don Moyer likely strapped on a few in his day!
First: you need is the Moyer Marine Inc manual. (MMI manual)...check on the catalogue and order one.
Second: A good SAE socket set; vise grips, pliers set; screw driver set....we may as well make you a mechanic....happens to the best of us.
Third: MMI lets us on here and gives so much advice...so if you do need parts we do our best to support MMI for their support for us.

A few questions:
-Do you know who the previous owner was...get all the info you can on the engine.
-Was the engine seized when you got the boat or has it seized since.
-Are there any water marks inside the boat where she may have been on the hard with water inside the cabin.
-Are all the cables moving...ie throttle, shifter etc (indication of how seized things are).
-Was it winterized properly (if you live in a cold environment)
-Check the dipstick and see if there is any oil in it. If it is greyish that indicates water in oil. Note: that over a period of time water may settle in the base pan, if the engine turns over it mixes it up and it's easy to see.


To free up that engine go to the supermarket and buy a gallon of white vinegar. Pull out all the plugs and fill the tops of the cylinders with vinager...fill -er-up...leave the plugs out. Couple of days later try to move it with hand crank if you have one. If no movement give another dose of vinager....don't mix the vinager...it cuts rust and oils become a buffer making it harder to work....give it a few days and she will turn over.

Keep your entries on this thread for a little while so that everyone on here can keep track of how you are doing with it.

Link to Don Moyer News Letter....good info for you... here's the link http://www.moyermarine.com/newsletters/9-1-11.html

[alex.gomes]

More questions!

Thanks for the information guys! Very very much appreciated. I can't explain how much your posts have helped already.

Alright a quick couple of details on the "seized up" part of it all.
It was not overheated before seizing up. I was told by two different mechanics. (brought in another last night for a second opinion) That there is salt water in the engine because of the new check valve I installed in the new hot section of the exhaust. I don't know exactly what the salt water did, but when I try to crank it, I turn the ignition switch and it tries to crank, but you can see through the tops of the cylinders that its just stuck. It tries but it just gives me a "clunk." I was reading that saltwater back up is by far one of the worse things to have happen, so I figured it was the main culprit. When I do look into the tops of the cylinders, it is bone dry.

I know the previous owner and we had a mechanic give it a look before I bought it. She ran quite well for about 7-8 runs before all this happened. Everything else is fine, no other seizing anywhere else. From what I can tell, there was no water in the cabin, and this poor girl hadn't been taken out in years. The previous owner has had her for the past 10 years, and *seemed experienced enough to know how to winterize an engine, but with all of the engines difficulties now because of him not taking good care of her, he very well could not have winterized at all. I'm going down today to change the oil and see if there is any water in there as well.

Couple more questions.
How can I check for sure that there is saltwater backup? Should I be turning things off now and making sure no more water can get back into the engine? Or is the damage already done?
With this vinegar technique, how can I be positive that when I try to crank her, I don't get any more saltwater backup from the exhaust? Should I drain the water lift muffler? Remove the check valve and replace it with a standard fitting?
Thanks again for everyone'e help.

[Dave Neptune]

Start with this

Alex, first turn off your through hull to the water pump, Second extact all of the oil and water from the pan. Third add a few ounces of MM oil or a penatrating oil of your choice into each cylinder.
Now remove the starter and gently try prying against the flywheel a little bit in each direction. Carefully do this so you don't chew up the teeth on the flywheel. Keep going in both directions and SLOWLY begin applying more preassure. If it rocks a bit keep it rocking until you see the pistons move a bit.
After you get it mooving put in a few quarts of fresh oil and try spinning it with the starter with the plugs out and ignition OFF or unhook the positive wire from the coil. If it spins "spray" in some more penetrating oil (WD-40 is fine) and spin a bit longer in short stints with the starter motor.
Now you can do a thumb or gage compression test on each cylinder. The thumb test is what I recomend, just hold your thumb over the sparkplug hole and give her a spin. If your thumb won't hold on at least 2 or more of the cylinders we will be ready to start. If you use a gage don't worry about the preassure readings, all we arte checking for is stuck valves and they may shake loose if it gets started.

You can add the vinegar to the cylinders first and let them sit for at least 24 hours then add the oil and try to start working it loose as above.

Get back if you are confused or you get started on the above. It can be a huge savings and the worst is probably having to remove the head and unsticking the valves.

Dave Neptune

[alex.gomes]

Update

Thanks for the quick reply Dave! Alright so I'm on my boat now, and the oil looks normal. I've began your list of things to do, but run into a bit of a snag. The raw water intake through hull is shut off and on by a gate valve. (The valve that looks like a garden hose spicket) but when I try to close it, it just keeps spinning, both clockwise and counterclockwise. I'm assuming this creates a whole new set of problems, having a stuck open gate valve. I'll keep searching for a solution to this, though I thought I would keep you updated. I will begin the rest of the list as soon as I can figure this new development out.

[lat 64]

oil, stat!

Hi Alex,
Looks like you have a few other things to fix too.
Salt water intrusion is not the worst thing. Letting it sit without getting some oil into the cylinders and then not doing what Dave says is the worst.
I bet you can save this engine if you stay with it and don't let it rust up.

Oh, welcome!
Russ

[alex.gomes]

One more thing...

I also haven't mentioned, I will be leaving town on Monday for two weeks on a business trip, and I will only have tomorrow to work on her before I leave. With that being said, I need to make sure I get the essentials done tomorrow to make sure she isn't worse when I get back.
Would the most important thing be to get some MM oil in there and let it sit? I can remove all of the oil, the starter, and mess a bit with the flywheel all day tomorrow, permitted I figure out the thru hull situation. I just need to know, what must I do to keep her from getting any worse for the time being?
Thanks again for all the posts, I am much appreciative.

[smosher]

Alex, This is what these guys do, point people in the right direction.

Lots of experience and know how, I can't begin to tell you how many times I asked questions and rec'd right on advice. I am not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination but I got my issues fixed and my A4 runs reliably and I did all the work myself with the guidance from this forum.

Steve

[Dave Neptune]

Ok

Alex, do what you can to free it up and let it sit with the oil in the cylinders when you leave with whatever you accomplished to that point.
RE the valve, just get a plug to fit the hose and plug it that way. We can start and run for a bit without water~no worries!
It is a good thing that the oil level hasn't risen to much from water. When you suck it out the water will be on the bottom of the pan and you will not get it all out until you do a few oil changes~~that can be accomplished later.
When you leave on your trip be sure to "SPRAY" some oil in the cylinders so it will be slippery when you return.

Dave Neptune

[Mo]

The fact that it was running this year is a good thing. The rings are likely seized onto the piston walls due to the water and you need to free it up. There could be rust forming between the rings and pistons also.

Dave and Russ are right about the walls needing oil. Getting it moving with the crank handle or or screw driver in the flywheel is not going to damage the bore. Respectfully, try vinegar first, then when it starts to move use the oil. What happens quite a bit is that you end up with sticking rings because oil doesn't dissolve rust. If vinegar sat in it overnight it will probably turn over with the starter in the morning..it takes about a week to free up engines that have been seized for years.

The vinegar and rust will drain to the base pan and you have to change the oil anyway. No matter which method you try...do pour oil into the plug holes as soon as it starts to move. To prevent further rusting turn it over a few times to get a coat of oil on the piston walls.

Once you start pouring MMO into the plug holes the vinegar is either not going to work or be very very slow because the oil has coated the rust ... it (vinegar) can't effectively attack the rust.

Ensure water intake is closed when you get it to turn over.

[Gordo]

Welcome...and you're in the right place!

I'm new to the A4 also, but not to engine work. You're mechanic is at least being pesimistic, if not dishonest. If it was running that recently and you got some water in there, it's not ruined.

But I'm still confused on how the water got there. I couln't get any water into my engine by replacing the hot section. I thought this always happened because the seacock was left open and the engine cranked. Maybe I'm confused, I just don't see where the sea water flowed in. Additionally, the water should have drained into the oil. I'm guessing there wasn't water there based on the OP's saying it was fine.

Forgive me for going all the way back to the begining, but how do you know there was a water intrusion? I DON'T mean any offense, Alex, and I could be TOTALLY out there. But the clunk...and not turning over...could it be a battery now fully charged? Or a bad starter. Just thinking from how I'd start looking if all I had was an engine that ran fine and now won't start. Maybe just try to turn it over by hand (I mad a tool with a big socket and a grinder) to verify it's seized.

ALL the best and fully willing to be made to look stupid. I learn that way a lot :-)

[Dave Neptune]

Gettin in

Gordo, the water comes in from the water pump through the block and into the manifold then back out. From this point the water is sent up hill to the vented loop (with an anti-syphon valve) and back down into the exhaust. As the injection point into the exhaust is in most cases below the waterline it can syphon into the exhaust and begin to fill it up. Once filled the water in the exhaust side of the manifold can incraoch through any open exhaust valve and into the cylinders. If the anti-syphon valve fails the water will slowly syphon past the pump and can even sink the boat.
Hope that clears it up a bit for you.

Dave Neptune