Troubleshooting engine shut down issue

[cfergu22]

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Next weekend I'm going to try put a jumper to the fuel pump to pump a gallon or two of gas into a clear plastic jug. I'll see if that gas is clean or not. If it's not, I'll go the new gas tank and hoses route.

Does dirty gas explain why there was no gas in the carb after my previous stall out?

I'm going to clean the carb tonight and see if the jets are clogged.

[romantic comedy]

For me, i put a new tank in, in 15 years ago. I have had no fuel problems, except maybe a little dirt.

I also drive a 1967 VW and have no problems with the fuel system. I keep the filters new, and that is about it.

[sastanley]

cferg, just tonight, the boat that I race on Wednesday nights, the owner is down working on the (nearly new) Mercury 5HP 4-stroke. Pull, pull, pull...won't run. Even though it is a 4-stroke there is a little fuel sheen on the water so we assume it is getting fuel..New plug..still won't run...took the carb apart and the float was stuck closed. The engine has been in his garage in storage for about 6 weeks. I think it laying horizontal (in the correct orientation for a 4-stroke) allowed the damn ethanol to gum up the float valve.

I found a piece of teflon tape in my float bowl on my A4 years ago..learned my lesson there and removed all the teflon & went to Permatex on the threads.


The point is, you gotta check everything.

[Mo]

Hi Neil,
Here's my thinking on it. I think the cars don't have the same issues because of the volume of gasoline that typically is used in cars. Generally I go through a tank a week in the vehicles. I've put 20 gallons in the boat since March. An inherent part of sailing is that the engine is not the main source of propulsion so the gas does sit in the tank for longer periods of time.

Most vehicles now have pressurized fuel injection as well. Even if there was some sludge debris it could possibly be disintegrated by the pressure. Every now and then we hear of a sticking injector that is cleaned out with an additive. I think if cars were still using relatively low pressure pumps and carbs the mechanics would be busy.

That make any sense?

[ndutton]

I'm sorry Keith but we're at opposite ends of this.

. . . u live in california where i think they always had to engineer motors to more exacting requirements.

Nothing different about my A-4 than anyone else's and I bought my Zodiac w/ Yamaha outboard from an Alaska resident.

...may help to stick to marine fuel -- i wonder if i started things off by using auto fuel this year to get started?

I always use gas station fuel preferring it over the swill that comes out of the marina's underground low-turnover tanks.

All I was trying to say in my lengthy post earlier is it's my opinion that ethanol doesn't spontaneously create crud, it gets in the tank by other means and will continue to do so unless the incursion is found and remedied.

The ethanol debate strikes me much like political arguments, short on fact and long on conjecture. Fuel problem on the boat? It's all ethanol's fault. Economy - domestic - foreign problems? They're all (fill in name of current or former president)'s fault. It couldn't be anything else, right?

The problem for those who feel ethanol is the root of all fuel system evils is it's here to stay. You'd better find a way to live with it. In my case I'm having zero issues. My fuel lines were replaced 5 years ago, my deck plate O-ring seals tightly, I use only gas station fuel, I have a cheap spin-on Sierra water separating fuel filter (18-7945, same thing on the Yamaha), no polishing filter, I polish my fuel at least once a year, replace the filter once a year, clean and rebuild the carburetor every other year. When I replace the fuel filter I dump the contents into a glass container and let it settle. There's never any water or debris. This routine has worked well for me.

I wish everyone enjoyed the same.

[keithems]

lots.maurice -- thank you

[Mo]

But at the time of transition there were many autos with older technology and even a few still around with carburetors. I don't remember hearing a peep about these sorts of problems.

My ancient Briggs and Stratton powered lawn mower has no problems and it sits for prolonged periods. My 25HP carbureted Yamaha outboard sits for months with no problems either. My 1979 Honda 750 - same thing.

This raises one of my favorite questions: why some and not others?

You do have a point there Neil. My lawn mower started this spring no problem and I don't remember even putting stabil in the gas....yup, you have a point there.

[keithems]

i think the point is...

on our boats you can't normally drain the fuel, so over time the concentration of h20 and gunk increases. -- plus i have read that ethanol will pull h2o out of the air

since i went to the new outboard tank last week, my a4 has been perfect. perfect! starts on about 1 turn, no coughing, has the "explosive" acceleration don m. says it should have. burns about 1 gal / hr.

and has been running on 87 fuel from the nearest gas sta -- with 10% ethanol.

so clearly, the problem is not if the a4 will run well on e-10. it's what e-10 does in the tank over time if not used. and i say -- if any doubt about the fuel in the tank -- get it pumped out completely, cleaned, or replaced.

i don't think neil and i are that far apart, really, on this issue. and our c&c buddy above who started this thread can try whatever he wants for as long as he wants...

however..here's where it will come out -- and he can decide if he wants to sail and enjoy his boat as i do or if he wants to play engineer all summer...

1. squirt stating fluid -- or even gasoline -- into the carb intake...if it starts and begins to run -- you have a fuel problem; if not, ignition or compression

2. connect a clean [outboard] tank with fresh clean fuel to your water separator filter just before the fuel pump. make sure you have a clean water separator filter & polishing filter. drain the carb bowl and sediment bowl and clean the screen on the mechanical fuel pump, if u have one.

if it runs well -- and did not before with fuel from the main tank -- you have fuel contamination in your main tank.

clean or replace it. enjoy life. use the outboard tank until you get around to dealing with the ship's tank. write and tell keithems he was right for once.

[cfergu22]

I took the carb apart last night, everything seemed clean. I replaced the needle valve and cleaned the main jet.

It'll be interesting to see if there's crud in the gas when I rig it to pump a gallon or so out this weekend. If there is, I'm definitely going the new tank and all new lines route. I'd just have to decide if it's worth spending money on a temp fix or if I should just bite the bullet and replace the tank and fuel lines for good.

Are there some ways to tell if your fuel pump is going bad?

[sastanley]

cferg...the best way is to put in a fuel pressure gauge...a favorite around here is "Mr. Gasket" brand..it is about $15 plus a couple of brass fittings to 'tee' it into the fuel line. This will give you an instant reading of fuel delivery which should be somewhere around 3 PSI in these motors.

We got a little off track, as is usual around here when we get on a passionate subject like the corn lobby wreaking havoc on older engines by pushing their ethanol. - I cannot remember if anyone suggested, or if you tried yet, using an outboard style tank directly to the fuel pump with fresh fuel in it to eliminate the rest of the fuel system??

[ndutton]

Be very careful how you attach a jumper to run the electric fuel pump. You don't want to send power to the coil while you're pumping fuel (engine not running).

[cfergu22]

Ndutton, Thanks for the advice. What's the best place attach the Jumper to so that power doesn't get to the coil? As long as I just pull out the ignition switch and don't press in the starter button I should be ok right?

Keithems and Sastanley, Will an outboard tank with a 1/4" nipple work with my current Faucet Fuel pump? It's all I can seem to find online. I'll have to check my current hoses this weekend. I thought they were 3/8ths.

Thanks

[ndutton]

Assuming the oil pressure safety switch is wired properly and functioning, you can connect the hot jumper to the OPSS terminal that goes to the fuel pump, NOT the other side.

To be absolutely sure or as a fail-safe, remove the small black wire off the coil '-' terminal for this operation.

[67c&ccorv]

Anyone know what happens to the left over corn mash in the ethanol production process?

Or where some of that 200% proof ethanol ends up?

[keithems]

I cannot remember if anyone suggested, or if you tried yet, using an outboard style tank directly to the fuel pump with fresh fuel in it to eliminate the rest of the fuel system??

that's exactly what i suggested -- and did myself, with great results

even if u have to buy a new o/b tank, they're only about $60.

trust me, clean whatever you want...do whatever you want...but this is what u should do first. i figured that if i decide i don't want to keep the o/b tank, i cna always resell it on craig's list for at least half of what i paid.