What instruments do you have?

[domenic]

My gals a 1968. The last (non-seamen) owner never took care of her. I have a temp gage which I fixed, oil pressure gage, and amp. Her radio won't send, Knot meter don't work, Depth sounder don't work, pump in the galley don't pump.
She's not ready for sea, or even the Bay. I figure January 2012.
After all the help I got from you guys, her A4 is alive and well. The rest is pure fun work.
I'm the old type sailor...no GPS, they have gone astray to often. I like sexton, stars, and weather. Whatever is aboard, I must be able to fix at sea. If not it has no place on my boat. After I fix my seacocks, I'll post pictures. I always have a FG box molded over a seacock. If it bust lose at sea, water stays in the box.
I'm going to mount a generator I can lower to kiss the shaft, so when under sail I can put the gear in forward to move the generator for light power. Somewhat like they use on bikes, just a little larger.

[Gordo]

It's an instrument thread...so I'll jump in and ask....Dom: can you support this statement "no GPS, they have gone astray to often."?

[67c&ccorv]

Either they walked off the job - or they got lost?

[ILikeRust]

I'm going to mount a generator I can lower to kiss the shaft, so when under sail I can put the gear in forward to move the generator for light power. Somewhat like they use on bikes, just a little larger.

I'm curious about this - are you thinking that while under sail with the engine off, the movement of the boat through the water will spin the prop with enough force to spin a small generator?

I would think it woudn't take much braking force to slow or stop the prop when coasting in neutral at 5 or 6 knots. I wonder whether the water flowing past the freewheeling prop would generate enough power to spin a generator large enough to provide enough power to be worth the effort.

What would you anticipate powering with that generator?

Inquiring minds, and all that...

[ILikeRust]

Oh yeah, and -

One of the very first things I purchased when I bought my boat last year was a Garmin GPS chartplotter.

I wouldn't be without it.

Cheating? If you want to call it that.

Taking advantage of modern technology? Absolutely. Sorta like cruise control on a long highway trip. Or air conditioning. Or an MP3 player for music.

I don't blindly follow what my GPS tells me to do, but it's fantastically useful for determining where I am and how far away my goal is.

I still also keep paper charts along and consult them at the same time, to make sure everything still looks right.

[domenic]

It's an instrument thread...so I'll jump in and ask....Dom: can you support this statement "no GPS, they have gone astray to often."?

About two years ago I was reading a report, because of sun flair ups GPS was putting the location of ships some two hundred miles from their true location. I know at thirty feet off the water, the horizon is about thirty miles away. So just a little off can be very bad. I read the report on the web...it has to still be on some where. I grew up on sexton. The only thing that can throw me off...if the sun itself moved. Which it don't. I will look and see if I can find it.

Here is just a few;

Couple Stuck in Oregon Snow for 3 Days After GPS Leads Them ... Couple Stuck in Oregon Snow for 3 Days After GPS Leads Them Astray. Published December 28 ... directed them south on U.S. Highway 97 to Oregon Highway 31, which goes ...https://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/...o...s-leads-astray - Cached
Couple stranded 3 days in rural Oregon after GPS leads them ... ... stranded 3 days in rural Oregon after GPS leads them astray ... Highway 97 to Oregon Highway 31, which goes ... There have been too many needless deaths due ...https://www.oregonlive.com/news/inde...2009/12/couple... - Cached
Practical Benefits of GPS System - EzineArticles Submission ... Global Positioning System is a navigational ... using a collar if it goes astray, with the support of the GPS ... from the satellite due to poor performance of the GPS ...ezinearticles.com/?Practical-Benefits-of-GPS-System&id=... - Cached
GPS Causing Truckers to Crash Into Bridges Requiring all trucks in the state that are using GPS to buy an enhanced device goes too far, she said. "It places an unfair and unwarranted financial burden on ...https://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2009...using-truckers... - Cached
GPS led couple astray, says rescued woman's pastor Home: Canada: GPS led couple astray, says rescued woman's pastor ... after days of on-again-off-again searching due to ... Paradise City: Degrassi Goes Hollywood; The Pig Farm https://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20...etien-recovery... 
Kenwood DNX7100 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review (12 Reviews) - $42.00 as of Aug 29, 2011 ... screens and to recalibrate routes when the driver goes astray. ... The implementation is flawed however due to faulty ... To help you select the best GPS system for you, we've ... reviews.cnet.com/car-gps-navigation/kenwood-dnx7100/4505... - Cached 
Garmin C340 Gps New | Garmin StreetPilot C340 GPS Unit ... Find Car GPS reviews at Buzzillions including 265 ... Likely due to an unclean windshield and hot to cold ... with it's relatively small downtown, it goes astray and loses ...https://www.buzzillions.com/reviews/...pilot-c340-gps... - Cached
Stories Of GPS Directions Gone Wrong : NPR [Aug 12, 2009] Has your GPS ever led you astray? Our number here in Washington is 800-989-8255. ... Off to the hospital he goes. He will survive. But don't folks look ... https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=111809897
Dog-Gone GPS Locator: RoamEO Keeps Track of That Roving Beast Numerous GPS devices have been released for dogs, and ... You can set it to sound an alarm if your doggie goes ... you find that little lost sheep when he's gone astray.gizmodo.com/198819/dog+gone-gps-locator-roameo-keeps...
GPS system threatened by satellite failures THE GLOBAL POSITIONING SERVICE (GPS) on which satellite navigation ... signal travels 100 miles along ground, also goes ... or no loss unless the nuclei become unstable due ...https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...gps-threatened... - Cached

Here is something I learned when I was in the South Pacific...A latitude stick. The Islanders used them for hundreds of years. They would have the marks on sticks. One for every latitude they used.

Use a stick to find your latitude on the Earth
Special Long-Term Astronomy Laboratory. Use a stick to find your latitude on the Earth! Seasons on the Earth are due to the tilt of the rotation axis of the Earth with ...
https://www.uic.edu/classes/phys/phy...3;latitude.htm - Cached

[domenic]

I'm curious about this - are you thinking that while under sail with the engine off, the movement of the boat through the water will spin the prop with enough force to spin a small generator?

I would think it woudn't take much braking force to slow or stop the prop when coasting in neutral at 5 or 6 knots. I wonder whether the water flowing past the freewheeling prop would generate enough power to spin a generator large enough to provide enough power to be worth the effort.

What would you anticipate powering with that generator?

Inquiring minds, and all that...

I don't know if it will work, but if it does I hope to power the running lights.
My shaft seems to move along at a pretty good clip. worth a try.

[ILikeRust]

Don't blame the GPS for the user's stupidity. It's a tool, just like anything else, and you have to know how to use it intelligently. People who get lost or crash into things while following their GPS were BLINDLY and slavishly following their GPS.

There have been airplane crashes in which the pilots were staring at the gauges and crashed as a result, rather than looking out the window and seeing that the ground was approaching with rapidity. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have those gauges in your airplane or that they're not useful tools to have.

Another issue with the land-based GPS systems is making sure you keep the map updated to account for changes due to road construction. People who end up going the wrong way often are following an outdated map because they didn't want to spend the $40 or whatever to buy the most recent map.

It seems to me that most , if not all, of the incidents you cite should not be viewed as fatal flaws or condemnations of all GPS units and GPS technology in general. They merely serve to accentuate the fact that, just like any other tool, you have to know how to use it and they are subject to user error.

[Gordo]

As I suspected, having been down this road, all those links (the 4 that worked, that could be my internet) are anecdotal, mostly related to people not looking out the window, or a map that isn't right. I read a story like 3 weeks ago about a power boat running up ONTO a small island in the Keys. His excuse? "It wasn't on the chart on my GPS"

My point is only this: there are zero confirmed incidents of the GPS system giving false data. Do you really think airliners would rely on it, and our military would guide misiles with it if it wasn't as infalible as any piece of electronics ever created?

It IS electronic, and as such isn't as reliable as the sun THAT is true. But we musn't let urban legend stop us from using any and all technology we have access to. Now I'm not saying YOU NEED to use it, or that ANYONE should rely on JUST GPS! But I'd trust a working GPS over my limited human abilty to sight and figure any day. Especially entering a fogged in harbor with an emergency...I know I wouldn't be able to use a sextant then.

Finally, the latest urban scare is the "failing GPS satelites". Read the whole story, and you'll see that they are nearing the end of their "planned" lifetime. That's NOT the same as they are dead that day. The ntire US armed forces rely on the GPS system and the Air Force will NOT let it fail.

On a lighter, and lower tech note..my gas gauge is plain old Yellow Pine. I guess that makes me a lower class of gas tank dippers. I may need to upgrade

[Mo]

Ask me if I trust it now.

A few plus a few years back I thought my GPS was wrong once. In the thick of fog I figured my dead reckoning was better. GPS was saying my intended bouy HN6 was .8 miles to my Prt. Just to give it the benefit of doubt I took the sails down and gingerly made my way toward it under power...only to find it right where the GPS said it was....as for my dead reckoning, I was headed for "Wreck Cove"...and I would not be the first...hence the name.

[domenic]

As I suspected, having been down this road, all those links (the 4 that worked, that could be my internet) are anecdotal, mostly related to people not looking out the window, or a map that isn't right. I read a story like 3 weeks ago about a power boat running up ONTO a small island in the Keys. His excuse? "It wasn't on the chart on my GPS"

My point is only this: there are zero confirmed incidents of the GPS system giving false data. Do you really think airliners would rely on it, and our military would guide misiles with it if it wasn't as infalible as any piece of electronics ever created?

It IS electronic, and as such isn't as reliable as the sun THAT is true. But we musn't let urban legend stop us from using any and all technology we have access to. Now I'm not saying YOU NEED to use it, or that ANYONE should rely on JUST GPS! But I'd trust a working GPS over my limited human abilty to sight and figure any day. Especially entering a fogged in harbor with an emergency...I know I wouldn't be able to use a sextant then.

Finally, the latest urban scare is the "failing GPS satelites". Read the whole story, and you'll see that they are nearing the end of their "planned" lifetime. That's NOT the same as they are dead that day. The ntire US armed forces rely on the GPS system and the Air Force will NOT let it fail.

On a lighter, and lower tech note..my gas gauge is plain old Yellow Pine. I guess that makes me a lower class of gas tank dippers. I may need to upgrade

There is a golden rule as old as when men first went down to the sea in ships..."NEVER SAIL INTO ANYTHING YOU CANT SAIL OUT OF." Never, never enter a harbor in the fog. You never put a vesel in harms way not even to save a life...if you do, you could lose the vessel, and kill more than one person.
In 2009, China tried to blow up some of the thousands of junk in space around the earth...That junk is still up there, but now there are millions of little junk.
Stuff has gone astray, and yes, there are records that ships, and small vessels have been way off course because of GPS singles being off.
I'm not saying don't use a GPS, but learn how to use a sextant...and don't enter a harbor, river, etc in the fog.

I trust a GPS about the same as I trust Government; Read this for fun. It just might come true.

The Nav Log ^
Global Positioning System users are everywhere. Planes. Cars. Boats. Trucks. Ships. ... aviation destroyed if GPS failed ... Anyone who has ever used a cell ...
navlog.org/gps.html - Cached

[ILikeRust]

On a lighter, and lower tech note..my gas gauge is plain old Yellow Pine. I guess that makes me a lower class of gas tank dippers. I may need to upgrade

I might have you beat there. Mine came with the boat and was provided by the previous owner. It's a 1/4" birch dowel, upon which he hand-wrote 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full lines with a ball-point pen.

I plan on making a nice new one out of mahogany, with a nice handle on the end. The current dowel is just exactly the height of the tank, so you have to carefully pinch the tip with your finger and thumb and hold it right down inside the fill spout. I'll make the new one 6 or 8 inches longer, with the handle.

[ILikeRust]

there are records that ships, and small vessels have been way off course because of GPS singles being off.

Can you link to some? What do you mean about GPS signals being "off"? Do you mean there was NO signal? Again, if the user continues to rely on his or her GPS when it clearly is no longer functioning properly, that's the fault of the user, not the GPS. Just the same as if your oil pressure gauge suddenly drops to 0 or pins out at 100 psi, and you merrily just keep motoring on instead of poking your head down and having a look at what's ACTUALLY going on. If your speedometer in your car stops functioning, do you not drive the car? Or, contrarily, if it starts behaving erratically, do you continue to believe it and adjust your speed based on what your speedo is telling you? Or do you look out your windshield and look around you to judge how fast you really are going?

Every story I've read about someone being off-course due to blindly following their GPS occurred because they were BLINDLY FOLLOWING their GPS. Again, it's just a tool, like anything else - albeit an extremely useful - and, so far as I can tell - reliable one.

I'm not saying don't use a GPS, but learn how to use a sexton...and don't enter a harbor, river, etc in the fog.

I'm not saying that every person with a boat must have a GPS - anymore than I would say that every person with a boat needs a sextant. My sailing is entirely confined to the Chesapeake Bay and its environs. I plan on taking a longer trip next year to cruise down the ICW to Core Sound and Pamlico Sound and go to Ocracoke. You don't need a sextant to do that. You also wouldn't really need a GPS, when it comes down to it, but it sure makes it a lot easier.

When I was a kid, my dad had a small cabin cruiser, and we cruised all up and down the northern end of the Chesapeake for days at a time, using nothing more than the standard NOAA charts, our own eyesight and a pair of binoculars. Now that I have a GPS chartplotter (and not quite as sharp eyesight), it makes the job all that much easier.

I trust a GPS about the same as I trust Government

I wholeheartedly agree with and endorse your unwillingness to trust government - I share that sentiment. I have to say, however, that there is no similar reason to have such a deep mistrust of GPS. Again, it's all about knowing how to use the tool, rather than slavishly and blindly following it and doing what it tells you to do.

As far as entering a river or harbor in a fog, now we're talking radar. Back in the 1980s/90s, my dad had a 37 -foot Cheoy Lee trawler that we cruised on the ICW down in Georgia and Florida. It had a nice radar setup on it, which made it possible to "see" everything - in the dark and in fog. More than once we proceeded up a channel in total, dense, blanket fog. We of course proceeded very slowly and sounded a horn as required, but you could plainly see the channel markers, other vessels, and the shoreline on the radar screen.

If everyone followed the rule to never enter a river or harbor in fog, how would ships get anywhere? You'd end up with a whole lot of boats just sitting around waiting for the fog to lift. Ships enter rivers and harbors in fog all the time. Once again, it's simply about having the right tools and knowing how to use them.

[domenic]

Can you link to some? What do you mean about GPS signals being "off"? Do you mean there was NO signal? Again, if the user continues to rely on his or her GPS when it clearly is no longer functioning properly, that's the fault of the user, not the GPS. Just the same as if your oil pressure gauge suddenly drops to 0 or pins out at 100 psi, and you merrily just keep motoring on instead of poking your head down and having a look at what's ACTUALLY going on. If your speedometer in your car stops functioning, do you not drive the car? Or, contrarily, if it starts behaving erratically, do you continue to believe it and adjust your speed based on what your speedo is telling you? Or do you look out your windshield and look around you to judge how fast you really are going?

Every story I've read about someone being off-course due to blindly following their GPS occurred because they were BLINDLY FOLLOWING their GPS. Again, it's just a tool, like anything else - albeit an extremely useful - and, so far as I can tell - reliable one.



I'm not saying that every person with a boat must have a GPS - anymore than I would say that every person with a boat needs a sextant. My sailing is entirely confined to the Chesapeake Bay and its environs. I plan on taking a longer trip next year to cruise down the ICW to Core Sound and Pamlico Sound and go to Ocracoke. You don't need a sextant to do that. You also wouldn't really need a GPS, when it comes down to it, but it sure makes it a lot easier.

When I was a kid, my dad had a small cabin cruiser, and we cruised all up and down the northern end of the Chesapeake for days at a time, using nothing more than the standard NOAA charts, our own eyesight and a pair of binoculars. Now that I have a GPS chartplotter (and not quite as sharp eyesight), it makes the job all that much easier.



I wholeheartedly agree with and endorse your unwillingness to trust government - I share that sentiment. I have to say, however, that there is no similar reason to have such a deep mistrust of GPS. Again, it's all about knowing how to use the tool, rather than slavishly and blindly following it and doing what it tells you to do.

As far as entering a river or harbor in a fog, now we're talking radar. Back in the 1980s/90s, my dad had a 37 -foot Cheoy Lee trawler that we cruised on the ICW down in Georgia and Florida. It had a nice radar setup on it, which made it possible to "see" everything - in the dark and in fog. More than once we proceeded up a channel in total, dense, blanket fog. We of course proceeded very slowly and sounded a horn as required, but you could plainly see the channel markers, other vessels, and the shoreline on the radar screen.

If everyone followed the rule to never enter a river or harbor in fog, how would ships get anywhere? You'd end up with a whole lot of boats just sitting around waiting for the fog to lift. Ships enter rivers and harbors in fog all the time. Once again, it's simply about having the right tools and knowing how to use them.

I agree. If you have the right tools, and they always work, and you know how to use them. But we both know things do not always work.

True, ships move about in fog all the time. It is also true they run into things. The San Francisco/ Oakland Bay bridge was hit by one. Ships are playing a money game. There is no substitute for good seamenship. People not only die at sea, they also die in harbors, rivers, and lakes from lack of seamenship.
Sailing vessels play a waiting game. We don't sail into anything we can't sail out of. People have died who have the tools, and know how to use them. The engine is a tool...engines more times than not, don't work when we need them. If they always worked, there would be no need of this forum. When Moyer says, "Guys, I'm closing the doors of Moyer Marine because the A4 will never brake," Then I will trust my little engine. When all the repair shops that fix all the other tools for the same reason, Then I will agree with you. If a master of a sailing vessel puts his trust in the tools, he/she is putting his/her vessel, and others in harms way.
I would suggest anyone with a GPS read the Good Old Boat Sailing Magazine Issue 75 (November/December 2010. Page 26-27. It will put the hair up on the back of your neck. GPS put Ships and aircraft in the North Sea 75 miles from their true position.
As to GPS, check this out.

Outer space danger threatens 2010 World Cup | GPS Systems
In 2007, China destroyed a satellite while doing ... However, there is a very real danger that space junk could get at ... Not only are we wholly dependent on GPS navigation ...
gpssystems.net/2010-soccer-world-cup - Cached

What is space junk and why is it so dangerous? | U of T ...
... of pieces of debris and focused public attention on the potential dangers of “space junk.” ... A single GPS satellite system can be 40 or 50 satellites. Many of the objects ...
https://www.research.utoronto.ca/beh...dlines/what-is... - Cached

Experts sound alarm about space junk threat ...
... sound the alarm about threat from space junk Danger ... An artist's illustration of a satellite collision from space ... Back to slideshow navigation
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/...scie...eat-space-junk - Cached
More results from msnbc.msn.com »
The Danger of Space Junk
Skip Navigation ... to simulate the collision of a satellite with a piece of orbiting space junk. ... were skeptical about the dangers of space debris.
https://www.theatlantic.com/.../07/t...pace-junk/6691 - Cached

Lost Russian satellite poses threat to space navigation
Lost Russian satellite poses threat to space navigation ... stressed the lost satellite posed no danger to the International Space ... growing problem of space junk ...
https://www.spacemart.com/...satelli...ation_999.html - Cached

Air Force lofts satellite to track space junk
... launch a new satellite sentinel to keep tabs on other spacecraft and the growing problem of space junk ... Expanding Danger of Space Junk ... to slideshow navigation
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/.../ns/tec...;science-space - Cached

Space Debris Illustrated: The Problem in Pictures
Space junk, space debris, space waste ... sense to not even send up a satellite, or have the space ... least where they pose the most dangers, but having every piece of junk ...
https://www.universetoday.com/13587/...llustrated-the... - Cached

[ILikeRust]

Applying your logic, we should never use any electronic instrumentation, because sometimes they might fail and give us bad information.

The fact that there have been past instances of a piece of electronics not operating entirely as it was supposed to does not mean, to me, that you should simply not have one on your boat.

We've all read instances of gasoline-powered boats blowing up. And yet we all have gasoline-powered boats.

I'm not trying to convince you that you need one - we all make our own decisions as to how and what we want to sail.

If I were going to try to cross the Atlantic or something, I absolutely, definitely would learn a heck of a lot more about navigating by the stars and absolutely, definitely would learn how to use a sextant. For mucking around the edges of the Chesapeake Bay and gunkholing up the rivers, creeks and bays, a sextant would be an expensive but pretty thing that lives in a box in a locker somewhere on the boat.

Diff' strokes for diff' folks...