Looking for my first boat

[audiobasket]

I caught the sailing bug over the past years sailing on other peoples vessals and decided that it was time to get one of my own. I'm looking at a 74 Tartan 30 that's been on the hard for 4 years. the owner states that the engine was running fine when he pilled her. I'm not a mechanic but I going to find away to see if the engine has life left. The hull and deck seem to be in good shape. I want to dock in fells point and work on here over the winter. The boat is in rock hall and i need to get her here. My second choice is a 1978 Pearson 28. It was surveyed in 08 and has has some bottom work and has been painted. The owner states the last year whe he was motoring back to the docks the engine over heated and he never sailed her again. The Pearson is local. Both have A4 and need engine work. My question is where do i start at checking to see if these engine are viable.
Thanks Jeff

[Administrator]

I would expect a lot of replies.

Here's a snip from an old post from Don to get you started:

Here are a few things that you can look for:

1) It's obviously very important to check on the maintenance history of the engine, if one is available. The maintenance history, along with the ability to talk with the prior owner, can add insight to the findings of the following checks:

2) Check the exterior of the engine for signs of deep rust or scaling. Be especially critical of the alternator side of the block. In some cases, seals around water jacket side plates develop leaks, and given the limited access to that side of the engine on many boats, these leaks can go undetected for long periods of time, and deep scaling can result. In a few cases (fortunately very few), blocks have had to be scraped due to this scaling extending all the way through the block and into the crankcase.

3) The engine should be started and brought to a normal operating temperature of 160 to 170 degrees for raw water cooled engines and approximately 180 to 190 degrees for fresh water cooled engines. It is best to run the engine in "forward" and under load. If you are checking the engine in the slip, it's OK to simply pull against the dock lines. Check for any unusual noises. Atomic 4's are known for running rather quietly and smoothly.

4) Check for fluid leaks. Be especially critical of any evidence of gasoline around the carburetor or fuel lines.

5) Check for normal oil pressure of 30 to 40 psi by around 1500 RPM, and 20 psi or above at idle.

6) Run the engine for a short time at maximum power to check for any unusual sounds, excessive smoke out of the exhaust, or fumes from blow-by in the cabin.

7) In neutral, the engine should accelerate quickly as you flick the throttle from idle to full throttle without hesitation. It's important that you do not allow the engine to actually reach full RPM during this check. This is simply an acceleration check. The RPM never needs to go much above 2000.

8) Shut the engine down, and check the compression as soon as you can remove the spark plugs without burning your fingers. The combustion chamber volume in the heads of in-service Atomic 4s varies considerably, and compression can therefore vary from as low as 85 psi to as high as 120 psi, with the average being around 100 psi. Compression readings should have a maximum spread within 5 or 10 psi.

9) While the spark plugs are removed, check for excessive carbon buildup or oiliness. Do not be too critical of a black velvet sootiness as long as the plugs are dry.

If you are buying a boat without the opportunity to actually run the engine, perform as many of the above checks as possible, plus the following:

1) With the spark plugs removed, run the engine on the starter, and check for oil pressure. Oil pressure at starter RPM will usually be around 20 psi.

2) Check the compression. With a cold engine, compression readings can be expected to vary much more than in a warm engine, and if the engine has not been run in quite a while, valves might be a bit sticky, which will affect compression. These conditions are frequently not serious and will clear up after the engine is started and given a Marvel Mystery Oil treatment (5 or 6 squirts of oil in each spark plug hole).

Welcome to the Forum.

Bill

[jpian0923]

Which boat do you like better? Which deal do you like better? The forum will get you through the engine work. Get the boat you love the most.

I looked at both boats on sailboatdata.com and realized the Tartan looks to have better access to the engine, for working on. (pros and cons, do the math.)

[TomG]

Jeff,

Bill's re-post of Don's pre-purchase tips are very helpful and a great place to start.

I have a Tartan 30 that I'm quite fond of. I love the S&S design pedigree, I love the lines, and I love the way she sails. Tartan built a very good boat in those days but there are a few issues (starboard chainplates, winch islands, etc.) One of the things I truly love about the T-30 is the accessibility of my A-4. I'm very lucky to have a recently rebuilt MMI A-4 in my boat, so I haven't needed to do much work on it, but EVERYTHING is so easy to do on this engine, I really feel bad looking at other folks engine access challenges. The A-4 sits low over the keel which helps with CG and "hobby-horsing" and being able to remove the cover and have very nearly complete access to the entire engine is a godsend for a DIYer.

I live on the Eastern Shore (Kent Island) and I purchased my boat last year in Rock Hall. I can promise you, if you live near Fells Point, you will get very tired of driving to Rock Hall to get the boat running. If the engine needs to be rebuilt, I would seriously look at getting it towed across the bay to Fells Point and work on it on the hard there. Get a BoatUS tow package, launch the boat, "discover" you have an engine problem, call BoatUS and have them tow you to Fells Point. Simple as that.

Follow Bill's and Don's suggestions and assess the engines. Report back here your findings and concerns. I am most definitely a "newbie" in the world of the A-4, but there is a wealth of knowledge and eagerness to help that is largely unequaled in my experience. Pictures are priceless, so take your camera of smart phone and don't be shy about posting what you find. Unless the engines are complete basket cases, I'm certain you can get either of them running with the help Moyer Marine and this forum. Please let me know if you have any questions specific to the Tartan 30. I'll be to glad to offer what insight I've gained.

[audiobasket]

Thanks Guys.

I like the history of the Tartan boats and i would like to sail at least a week at a time on CBay. I'm going to Haven Harbor this weekend with a guy who say that he can test the engine to see if it has any compression. He says it should take about an hour and a half and charge me $125.00. The boats on the hard and i want to know if it turns over. I have uploaded a picture of the engine. i'll let you know how it turns out.

[Mark S]

Love the access to the engine that your photo reveals. I'd have to cut out my cockpit sole to have that view of my engine. Is it a V drive?

Mark

[Laker]

The Pearson is a very good boat. However , if I were in your shoes I would jump at the Tartan!

[smosher]

Looks like it maybe fresh water cooled,

If you take the bilge cover as being in the center appears the A4 is offset from the centerline.

Doesn't have the standard A4 shift lever.

I wonder what the yellow cup was for ?

Steve

[TomG]

Jeff, Best of luck to you!

A couple of things I'll offer regarding the Tartan:

The engine looks to be in pretty good shape. It's looks like this engine has the standpipe exhaust rather than a waterlift. It's my opinion that the standpipe is far superior to the waterlift, especially for the T-30. A perennial problem with waterlift mufflers and the T-30 is flooding the engine (especially cylinders 3 and 4) with exhaust water during hard starting. This problem is made worse in the Tartan because the engine sits so low and tilts back. The standpipe simply uses gravity to drain the exhaust cooing water, so there is no way for water to backup into the engine during hard starting. This is a good thing! It looks like the exhaust wrap is new on the hot section leading from the engine. This could mean the standpipe is new (or recently replaced) or could mean the hot section is new or it could mean nothing. It's easy to access the void where the standpipe is located. From inside the head, simply remove the cover to the left of the sink, Here is what my standpipe looks like:


It looks like this boat has an electric fuel pump mounted on the bulkhead just inboard of the battery box. This is a good thing too, in my opinion. The electric fuel pumps have an oil pressure safety switch (OPSS) that shuts off fuel if there isn't enough oil pressure. If the boat hasn't been run in a while, make sure there is good, clean fuel coming from the fuel pump. The OPSS can be bypassed with a jumper wire to check its operation.

You said the boat has been on the hard for four years. If that's the case, you could get a good boat at a great price, or you could get a headache. Obviously, the fuel system needs to be purged and cleaned. The batteries are probably shot. And the engine has not been turned over (most likely) in years. It's going to be tough getting the engine to run without a fresh fuel supply and good batteries and without doing a little work on a boat that isn't yours. A good, long soak of the cylinders with Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) would be wonderful first step in bringing this A-4 back to life. I realize there are limits to things you can do, just thinking out loud. It would be very nice to have a small outboard tank with fresh fuel and a fresh battery and a few feet of 5/8s inch water hose with you when you check out this boat. Of course a good compression check will be helpful, but for a boat layed up so long, a sticky valve or two should not be a surprise. I would hate to turn down a great boat for a sticky valve.

A few other specific T-30 things to check.

The fuel tanks were made of metal and as such, many have developed pinhole leaks. If the tank is EMPTY, check the tank very, very closely.

The starboard chainplates are a weak spot on this design. The starboard bulkhead is much smaller than the port bulkhead and is prone to leaking over time. Check this area closely.

Check the rudder for water intrusion and hairline cracks, especially along the bottom. Will probably be hard to see since there is likely a lot of bottom paint, but check anyway.

Let us know how the check out of the A-4 goes and good luck!

[Administrator]

Are you literally taking someone (not a Haven Harbour employee) there, or is a HH employee going to do the work?

HH has a reputation for first-class work at a first-class price, although I don't know if that expertise applies to A4's specifically. It's a relatively large marina, with a large staff, for whatever that might imply.

Bill

[TomG]

Looks like it maybe fresh water cooled,

If you take the bilge cover as being in the center appears the A4 is offset from the centerline.

Doesn't have the standard A4 shift lever.

I wonder what the yellow cup was for ?

Steve

Steve,

The bilge cover you see in the photo is actually one of two. This one is actually off centerline by quite a few a inches. If you look at the mast, you can get a good sense of the centerline. The A-4 is mounted off centerline and actually angles out of the back.

I'm not sure if this one is FWC or not. I'm thinking not since I don't see a heat exchanger or the second water pump.

I was wondering about the yellow cup myself!

[smosher]

on the pump intake, there's a metal canister. I thought it maybe a heat exchanger. The 2nd pump maybe attached to the frt of the engine.

[TomG]

on the pump intake, there's a metal canister. I thought it maybe a heat exchanger.

Ahhh, gotcha. I thought that was a roll of paper towels!

[smosher]

hahahaha, I think your right, it is a roll of paper towels


hahahahaaha

[Loki9]

Strange the way the motor is not on the center-line. Is that common? I've not seen it before. Does the propshaft have a universal? Or does the boat constantly turn to starboard?