T Fitting in Water Intake

[Unregistered]

Don, Do you have the description of what is needed to make this t-fitting. Do you sell the set up? Getting ready for winterizing and want no put it in. I think my water intake hose in 3/8 from the gate valve to the engine.

Thanks Rob

[Don Moyer]

Rob,

To this point we have not put an inlet "T" fitting kit together.

You can pick up a brass "T", ball valve, and hose barbs for the size of your inlet water hose at any local plumbing store (Home Depot for example). You then plumb the branch of the "T" (the upper part) into the hose from the through-hull with the stem of the "T" pointing toward a 5 gallon bucket. The ball valve gets installed on that third leg of the "T" so that the valve can open and close the third leg of the "T" (which goes to the bucket).

You will of course have to close the through-hull valve while you're drawing fluid from the bucket. When you're finished drawing antifreeze from the bucket, you simply close the ball valve on the "T" fitting.

This set-up can be used to draw in acid solution during an acid flush as well. In fact, many folks draw fresh water into their engines each time they leave their boats for any extended period of time.

I find this response to be a short trip down memory lane. This "T" fitting set-up was the subject of the first newsletter I ever wrote on November 25, 1991 (complete with simple hand-drawn sketch). If you have a copy of our Newsletter Compendium (1991 - 1999), you'll find the sketch on page 12.

Don

[Jim Booth]

I bought pieces today to add the T to my Columbia 8.7 for winterizing. I took a sample of old hose with me that was the same as the newer hose on the boat. Anyway, it's 5/8" hose when I match it up with garden hose in the store. The 5/8" hose barbs slide into it without much trouble, and they don't stretch the hose. But, they do have a smaller inside diameter than the hose itself. Is this the correct size hose barb to use, or should I get 3/4" hose barbs? They would have about same ID as the hose, but I'd have to force them in which doesn't seem like a good idea.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Booth]

Fantastic!

I installed the T-fitting like Don described for winterizing the engine. Filled a bucket with 5 gals of winterizing antifreeze. My wife stood on a ladder with a big bucket strapped to the paint tray, a fat spare radiator hose for my car in one hand and a plexiglas shield propped between her and the exhaust. She held the hose over the exhaust to direct the antifreeze into the bucket. I started the engine and let the A4 pump 4-1/2 gals out of the bucket. It worked great. I can hardly wait until spring to use it for acid flushing the block! We dumped the antifreeze back into the jugs ready for another use. (I might use it to weight my garden tractor tires instead). This is a simple and inexpensive job with "relatively" easy to get parts. It cost me over $150 to have my A4 winterized by the crew last season (just the coolant flush!).

Jim Booth

[Don Moyer]

Jim,

The sizing protocol of hoses, tubes, and pipe threaded fittings has been a source of frustration for me all of my life. Like yourself, I will still to this day take a piece of hose in to my local hardware store if I want to be sure of getting the correct fitting or hose.

The problem sometimes has to do with whether we're talking about inside dimension (ID) or outside dimension (OD) of things, but the issue is frequently much more challenging.

Hoses: The size of hose tends to relate to the ID of the hose, but not necessarily. As you discovered, "hose" barbs are not always faithful to their designated sizes. The reason for this anomaly relates to the fact that the ID designations of various plastic hoses varies ever so slightly from actual measurements. For example, polypropylene tubing is a very common plastic tubing used around the home (called "black coil pipe" by most of us). Black coil pipe will not fit over a barb of the same ID designation that was intended for use with rubber hose - which is equally common around our homes. As an indication of why I become frustrated, I can't even remember as I write this note which barbs will work with which kind of hose and tubing.

Pipe fittings - officially called National Pipe Thread (NPT): The size of pipe threaded fittings is based on the inside dimension of lead pipe which was used in homes, starting in the late 1800's. Lead pipe, of course, had much thicker walls. For example: The OD of 1/4" inch lead pipe was apparently close to 1/2". Today, the OD of a 1/4" pipe nipple still measures approximately 1/2". The materials in use today however are stronger than lead, so they don't require nearly as thick a wall. In fact, the ID of a 1/4" brass pipe nipple typically measures approximately 3/8". In short, nothing about a 1/4" pipe fitting measures 1/4".

Tubing (copper, steel, and plastic): Like hoses, tubing usually relates to ID or OD, but again this does not always seem to be the case. In copper, there is flexible tubing and rigid tubing. Copper tubing used in refrigeration systems does not seem to be the same as tubing used in household water and heating systems.

Don

[Jim Booth]

Don,
I attached a couple pictures of this adventure. One shows the parts I bought, and the other shows it installed. I shrunk them down to about 150KB each, so they shouldn't take too much of your bandwidth. Even though I got all the fittings at Menard's it was a bit of a hassle because none of these places seem to have all the pieces you want. ACE didn't even have a brass T! I almost had to go to a third place (Home Depot) but finally I spotted what I needed.

Jim

[doublec9]

T-fitting location

Don,
I'm getting set to install the T-fitting system on my A4 and have a quick question. Do you recommend the T closer to the water pump or closer to the through hull?

Thanks,
Carter
'Early Bird'
Pearson 30 #1106

[Don Moyer]

I don't think it matters.

Don

[HerbertFriedman]

T fitting in water intake

All these discussions about the T fitting in the water intake assume that when drawing in the acid or anti freeze solution from a bucket, that the thermostat is open thereby allowing the liquid from the bucket to be drawn into the engine block and not just diverted by the tee fitting in the water jacket plate, to the top of the thermostat housing and therefore by passing the block. (Whew that is quite a sentence). In Don's normal flushing procedure, you remove the thermostat, put back the thermostat housing and pinch off the by-pass hose thereby forcing all the liquid in the bucket into the engine. Or, you can run the engine till it heats up and the thermostat opens and then open the ball valve, shutting the thru hull valve, to let the bucket fluid be pumped into the block. Very tricky. I am about to install the three way valve arrangement suggested by Steve Markowski which eliminates the need to remove the thermostat. Don, any comments.

[SEMIJim]

Or, you can run the engine till it heats up and the thermostat opens and then open the ball valve, shutting the thru hull valve, to let the bucket fluid be pumped into the block. Very tricky.

Not really. But once the raw water gets cold, as it does in the northern climates this time of the year, you may have to run the engine for quite some time before the engine warms up enough for the thermostat to open. I had that problem last season. This season I'm going to pull the thermostat and pinch the hose, since I'm going to do this after the boat's on the hard.

I am about to install the three way valve arrangement suggested by Steve Markowski which eliminates the need to remove the thermostat.

Got a pointer to this setup? It would sure be nice to get this procedure to be as painless as the oil change has become with Don's kit for that.

Btw: Regarding valves, hose barbs and other such hardware from the likes of Home Depot and Lowe's: I've been told to avoid that stuff in marine applications. Personally, I use nothing but Groco and the like.

To the OP: If you really still have gate valves, you should get those replaced with proper ball valves while she's out of the water. Gate valves have become strictly verboten in marine applications. I'm told some insurance companies won't even issue a policy on a boat with gate valves in it.

Jim

[Don Moyer]

Only to thank you for your input. Your rationale is right on!

Don

[rigspelt]

Regarding valves, hose barbs and other such hardware from the likes of Home Depot and Lowe's: I've been told to avoid that stuff in marine applications. Personally, I use nothing but Groco and the like.

Like Don and his frustration with hose sizing (which I share), I have been frustrated on this project sourcing metal options for hose fittings. I do not use anything but the best bronze or Marelon I can find for my through hulls, seacocks and valves under the waterline, but I am very impressed with the condition of the brass fittings I have been removing from this old SWC engine from points above the waterline, like the brass nipples on the coolant hoses on the engine. They all look to be in excellent condition. They could be a type of high quality brass that maybe we can't get these days, but I am not sure I would be reluctant to use quality hardware store brass nipples and pipe fittings on the engine. However, I stand to be corrected: hardware is coming from uncertain sources these days. On the other hand, I think I will go with marine bronze fittings for this T in the cooling seawater intake hose, since it carries pure seawater, and is located on a critical hose (risk of sinking if it corrodes). But then on the other hand (wait that's 3 hands), it is usually pretty easy to inspect this T, and very easy to swap it out, compared to through hull fittings and seacocks. Unlike through hulls and seacocks, they are not continuously bathed in seawater under pressure, 7x24.

I searched the forums for Steve Markowski's valve setup but can't find it again.

[Don Moyer]

I would like to second your vote of confidence on the use of standard brass fittings in locations other than actual sea cocks and other through-hull applications. I've been using brass fittings for at least 20 years with no adverse affects, and as you point out, Universal themselves used brass fittings on their engines through out the 1960's and 70's (most of which were raw water cooled and operating in sea water locations). To my knowledge, we have never seen a single case of any of the brass deteriorating, even in places where dissimilar metals would seem to place them at greater risk, such as between the brass fittings and the cast iron of the engine components.

Don

[Nick duBois]

T fitting

Hello,

I was wondering if the T fitting has to be brass. I found a PVC one at the hardware store. I plan to use it to do both an acid flush and to draw antifreeze into the engine to winterize, if it is ok to use it.

Nick

[rigspelt]

I was wondering if the T fitting has to be brass. I found a PVC one at the hardware store. I plan to use it to do both an acid flush and to draw antifreeze into the engine to winterize, if it is ok to use it.

I don't know what official standards say, but personally I skip PVC and use metal -- much sturdier in a line that connects directly to the ocean. I found two industrial suppliers in my city that sell brass hydraulic and other pipe fittings and had a field day going through their shelves. I found the stores by asking mechanics and welders where they get their stuff. I had to learn about NPT vs non-NPT threaded connections to match threads correctly. Fairview Fittings in Dartmouth comes up in Google using "brass fittings halifax", but I don't know anything about them.