Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 73.147.224.246
Old 06-16-2020, 05:27 PM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Another intermittent shut down issue

Ok guys, new Afourian here, I just read another recent post (by Solitaire) and I have an almost similar issue, so I will try some of the troubleshooting suggested there.

But here’s what I have:
Rebuilt A4 (2009) with upgrades: new fuel tank , indigo electric fuel pump, indigo electonic ignition, indigo FWC system.
I Just replaced fuel and oil hoses, fuel water separation filter, plugs, Oil and filter, flushed the FW lines.

The shut down occurs when underway with no obvious sign, just quits. When is running oil pressure is just below 40 psi and engine temp at 150. It takes few attempts to restart and it might go for another 5’, 10’ maybe 20’ before it stops again.

No water in the fuel at least in the water separator bowl so it sounds an electric issue to me although I have not checked the fuel vent line as suggested in another post but will do ASAP.

I have to add that I might have an alternator charging issue also which could be related to this problem.

The boat (Tartan 30) and engine are new to me but this issue was brought up by the PO when we got the boat last fall. I did find a loose grnd wire on the fuel pump and though that was it but when we went out last Sunday (first time this spring Finally!!) no problem getting out of the channel but coming back the engine stopped 3 times.

Thank you in advance for any input!!

Marco
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 47.142.134.100
Old 06-16-2020, 07:55 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,186
Thanks: 39
Thanked 599 Times in 451 Posts
Fuel system problems and ignition system problems can cause shut downs.
In my mind the first step is to figure out which system is causing the shut downs.

There is a history of coil progressive failure caused by the coil overheating due to the increased dwell time that comes with an EI. You have the classic symptoms of this scenario.

A good place to start is to check for spark immediately after a shutdown, before the coil has a chance to cool off. Pull the big wire out of the center of the distributor cap and hold it near ground (the engine) and turn the engine to see if there is a blue-white spark.

Others will have other approaches. Do whatever makes the most sense to you.

A BIG WELCOME TO THE FORUM.

ex TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Muntasel (06-17-2020), Sam (06-17-2020)
  #3   IP: 73.147.224.246
Old 06-17-2020, 09:33 AM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you for the response. The coil route make sense to me And I will buy new one regardless wether mine is bad or not, and keep it as a spare.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 71.222.36.208
Old 06-17-2020, 09:45 AM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 2,964
Thanks: 20
Thanked 282 Times in 198 Posts
COLD JOINT

Another WELCOME to the crew!

In your situation, there could be something else behaving like a failing coil.
This quote is from our leader (Don) and worth checking...

"...there is a good possibility that the engine was going to start anyway when something else cooled down even if you didn't change coils.

There is at least one other item that behaves in this manner (fails from heat and cures itself when it cools), which is a faulty connection in the primary ignition circuit (some electricians call these faulty connections cold joints, I suspect because they only work when they're cold).

Please skip this paragraph if this is more than you wanted to know, but I am told by normally reliable experts that an electrical circuit sees a weak connection on the verge of failure as a localized zone of high resistance which translates into a small amount of heat build-up. As the heat builds up, the expansion created by the heat eventually causes the connection to open up (minuscule though this heat and expansion is, remember that a connection in this condition is on the virtual edge of failing anyway, even without the heat and expansion).

To keep things simple, before chasing the entire primary circuit which runs from the large battery terminal on the starter solenoid, through the ignition switch and back to the positive terminal of the coil, you could simply connect a jumper wire from the large battery terminal on the starter solenoid to the positive terminal of the coil. If the engine never shuts down as long as that jumper wire is installed, you will have confirmed that the primary ignition circuit is a cold joint in it someplace.

If the shutdowns continue with the jumper wire installed, you can check the remaining short section of the primary circuit which is between the negative terminal of the coil and the points. Sometimes the conductor in this short wire develops a cold joint where is passes under the distributor cap or at the terminal of the coil or at the points themselves."


IMPORTANT NOTE: Installing the jumper wire between the starter solenoid and the coil is the very same thing as turning on the ignition switch, so you cannot leave that wire installed except when running the engine or you will burn out the coil or kill the batteries.
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30

Last edited by roadnsky; 06-17-2020 at 11:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to roadnsky For This Useful Post:
Muntasel (06-17-2020)
  #5   IP: 47.142.134.100
Old 06-17-2020, 12:57 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,186
Thanks: 39
Thanked 599 Times in 451 Posts
It's Not Good To Have Doubts When Out On The Water.......

Take this opportunity to learn if (a) the coil is at fault and (b) if the coil has a problem why it failed.

(a)We do not know if there is an ignition or fuel system problem yet. If there is an ignition system problem the coil is suspect. There are easy ways to to test to see if the coil is functional or not. Could be something else. (see post #3)

(b)To many volts to the coil when the engine is running (see post #1)?; something weird with the EI?

By pursuing this you will get to the root cause of the shutdowns and have full confidence in your engine when done.

Best of luck.

ex TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Muntasel (06-17-2020)
  #6   IP: 73.147.224.246
Old 06-17-2020, 03:28 PM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well I have a couple of things to try now for next time I head out to the boat thank you.
Oddly enough the engine starts right up and seems to hold idle indefinitely, I will try to let it run around 1800/2000 Rpm at the dock and check the coil spark if and when it quits. Getting to the root cause of all will definitely present other challenges for sure, but surely add to better understanding and confidence on this motor.
It’s Rainy and colder than typical is in this neck of the wood but I will report any findings as soon as I get a chance.
Marco
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 69.251.79.112
Old 06-17-2020, 09:47 PM
scratchee scratchee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 24
Thanks: 7
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Does your RPM gauge bounce around or does it show a steady reading? When I bought my boat the seller had recently installed a new tach, and apologized because it bounced around and he didn't know why. A couple years later a few problems led me to replace the coil, and that unexpectedly fixed the tach. I guess the coil was slowly failing that whole time.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 108.185.228.107
Old 06-18-2020, 12:22 PM
Ando's Avatar
Ando Ando is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: San Pedro, CA
Posts: 132
Thanks: 176
Thanked 32 Times in 21 Posts
Such an annoying issue, I know. If it’s not the ignition coil etc As indicated above, try cleaning/rebuilding the carb. That was what caused my same problem.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 72.69.36.126
Old 06-18-2020, 02:26 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,378
Thanks: 35
Thanked 202 Times in 133 Posts
I agree this could easily be a coil issue, but wouldn't rule out a fuel starvation problem. I suggest adding a cheap fuel pressure gauge between the fuel pump and the carb to check it when the engine next fails. It is worthwhile even if it doesn't solve THIS issue.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tenders For This Useful Post:
Peter (06-18-2020), Sam (06-18-2020)
  #10   IP: 73.147.224.246
Old 06-19-2020, 10:06 AM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No erratic RPM reading, the only gauge that lags a little is the oil pressure it does not have a smooth transition with an increase or decrease of RPM, could be the sending unit or the gauge itself. Carb cleaning would be a good thing to do regardless, the P.O. used the boat but not extensively so the engine had a lot of down time. I am heading out today and see what I can find the new coil might not get here till Monday. Thanks for all your help so far.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 209.42.139.31
Old 06-21-2020, 02:55 PM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So I Don’t have A new coil yet (UPS Teased me with an early delivery notification which dis not happen)
But what I have checked today was fuel vent line which had no blockage...then looking at the coil:
it is a NAPA Product couple if things I measured the resistance on the secondary winding which is 9.18K Ohms kind in the lower end of the 9K-11k as recommended range by Don Moyer on his coil check tutorial video (much appreciated!).
There is also this additional resistor (DALE RH-50 Measured at 1.5 Ohms ) connected to the positive of the secondary winding. Not sure why they installed it, the coil itself has a labeled on the side ‘no external resistor required’ , any ideas?
Is this because I have electronic ignition? I doubt it. I will try the moyer’s coil (As soon as it gets here) and eliminate the resistor and hopefully this will be the end of this dilemma.
I tried to upload a picture of the coil set up but I am not sure if it will show.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 06-23-2020, 01:27 AM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
Yes, the resistor is actually it's because you have IE. The coil is likely NAPA IC14SB with 3.25 ohm primary coil resistance, but the ones I've measured are closer to 3.0 ohms.

The MM coil will be close to 4 ohms, which will reduce the current flowing through the IE. If you are using the standard Pertronix ignitor module, it has an upper limit of 4 amps that it can safely source.

If your alternator puts out 14.4 Volts (like mine) and you have 4 amp limit for the IE you need a 3.6 ohms to stay below that limit. Assuming your coil is "standard" resistor coil, it's not enough resistance to safely limit the current.

So don't remove the resistor until you get the MM coil.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 06-23-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 24.53.89.131
Old 06-23-2020, 05:41 AM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 211
Thanks: 71
Thanked 89 Times in 66 Posts
The purpose of the ballast resistor is to limit current through the primary ignition circuit.

EI has a larger dwell angle than points do. This larger dwell angle leads to the current flowing in the primary circuit for more time.

This increased time results in more heating of the coil and excessive temperature in the coil will lead to coil failure. It is my understanding that the ballast resistor is there to protect the coil, not the EI module.

I have never previously read the suggestion that the igniter module has a 4 amp current limit - are you able to provide a reference?

When I first arrived on this forum I was instructed to check my coil voltage and resistance to determine whether I needed a ballast resistor. Note that it is the primary resistance you need to measure to determine whether the ballast is required.

Ndutton is the forum guru on this topic (and just a few others...)

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 137.103.82.227
Old 06-23-2020, 07:59 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,645
Thanks: 48
Thanked 489 Times in 359 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter View Post
The purpose of the ballast resistor is to limit current through the primary ignition circuit.

EI has a larger dwell angle than points do. This larger dwell angle leads to the current flowing in the primary circuit for more time.

This increased time results in more heating of the coil and excessive temperature in the coil will lead to coil failure. It is my understanding that the ballast resistor is there to protect the coil, not the EI module.

I have never previously read the suggestion that the igniter module has a 4 amp current limit - are you able to provide a reference?

When I first arrived on this forum I was instructed to check my coil voltage and resistance to determine whether I needed a ballast resistor. Note that it is the primary resistance you need to measure to determine whether the ballast is required.

Ndutton is the forum guru on this topic (and just a few others...)

Peter
I don't know about 4 amps, but long ago we figured out it needs to be 4 ohms.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 06-23-2020, 11:25 AM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
The 4 amp limit for 4 & 6 cylinders is hard to find on the pertronix website since it's not included in the formal specs. I did manage to find it on the aussie version of their site. I also think there is one line mentioned in the written instructions... that come is in a lovely 4 point font.

http://www.pertronix.com.au/troubleshooting.html -> at the bottom

Four and six cylinder engines should not exceed 4 amps. Eight cylinder engines should not exceed 8 amps. If the total amperage in your system is higher than the amount recommended for your application, you should install a ballast resistor.

Example:
Voltage 12
Resistance 1.5
12 / 1.5 = 8
Total amperage is 8


I know this because I put a modern high performance coil on a modified IH Scout running a 392. About a year or so into running the coil with a pertronix it would have intermittent failures. After the 2nd pertronix module died, I started digging through all the docs and found the above reference. My coil measure out at 1.4 ohms and with a 14+V alternator... I was just over the limit, which caused a slow death. I added a ballast resistor and the third pertronix module has lasted over 15 years. Oh, and the same coil for entire time.

EDIT: I got curious and tried to find the same info on the main Pertronix site... and that section been truncated to just measuring the coil resistance and not why it's important. The Aussie site has the older version of the troubleshooting FAQ, without the fancy HTML expansion radio buttons.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 06-23-2020 at 11:47 AM. Reason: more info
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 06-23-2020, 11:44 AM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
One other advantage of using a power resistor as a ballast resistor it get the heat outside of the coil. Plus those power resistor have cool heat sink fins.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 06-23-2020 at 12:28 PM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 24.53.89.131
Old 06-23-2020, 12:17 PM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 211
Thanks: 71
Thanked 89 Times in 66 Posts
Ron,

Interesting. Your experience is contrary to what is reported with A4 engines.

Adding EI resulted in many coil failures. The addition of a ballast resistor to reduce the current through the coil solved the problem.

I believe Moyer then sourced a coil that had the appropriate resistance for use with EI so that no ballast resistor is required.

I also note that the section you quoted from started as follows

WHAT TYPE OF COIL CAN I USE WITH THE IGNITOR? HOW DO I CHECK MY COIL'S RESISTANCE? (12V NEGATIVE GROUND ONLY)

To determine if your systems coil is compatible with the Ignitor, some measurements should be taken prior to installation of the Ignitor.


This suggests to me that they are pointing out that you need to keep the current down to protect the coil.

Regardless, keep the current down with EI or something will cook.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 06-23-2020, 05:30 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
Yes, but different environments with different requirements. I was not using an inexpensive coil but a Mallory Promaster... and that is the one brand/type of coil that I've never had failure no matter the heat, vibration ... nor impacts. Also the engine attached to it was nothing like stock, and around 60-70% more HP and spun to a redline 50% higher than factory. The engine has little in common with A4, other than a carb.

Yes, I have a hot rod IH, that engine might be able to do wheelie in a combine. ;^)

Now that coil is like $120 so 3-4x the cost of typical coil... but it met my requirements and is now almost 20 years old. Plus, the wedge mount is worth $20 of that for ease of install and removal when you need more access to the firewall. No complaints and I would buy another one... and I have... but not for my little A4.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 06-23-2020, 06:47 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,924
Thanks: 162
Thanked 1,432 Times in 964 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory View Post
One other advantage of using a power resistor as a ballast resistor it get the heat outside of the coil. Plus those power resistor have cool heat sink fins.
???
It's excessive current coupled with twice the dwell of EI that heats the coil. Coils with sufficient internal resistance (I'm very careful how that is phrased*) for our application aren't subjected to excessive current so they don't overheat in the first place.

*Internal resistance does not mean there is an internal resistor present.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (06-23-2020), Peter (06-23-2020), Sam (06-24-2020)
  #20   IP: 192.55.55.43
Old 06-23-2020, 09:14 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
Every bit helps. Having a 4 ohm resistor dissipating heat inside coil body just adds more energy that gets in way for the actual winding to cool through a case. Energy is energy.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 06-23-2020, 09:44 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,924
Thanks: 162
Thanked 1,432 Times in 964 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory View Post
Having a 4 ohm resistor dissipating heat inside coil body just adds more energy that gets in way for the actual winding to cool through a case.
This discussion came up a year ago so I sacrificed a coil with internal resistance and cut it apart. No heat producing resistor inside. That is the point I was trying to make - - apparently poorly -- in my earlier post.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...&postcount=301

The resistance in an internal resistance coil is a function of winding wire gauge and length.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-23-2020 at 11:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Sam (06-24-2020)
  #22   IP: 192.55.55.43
Old 06-24-2020, 01:55 AM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 233
Thanks: 38
Thanked 68 Times in 54 Posts
OK, I have no desire to argue, that reminds me of work.

When I took apart a failed non MM coil for a different application, I found a resistor in a 3ish ohm coil (a loop of wire that was not part of the inductor). So both of us are stuck in small sample set that is not statistically significant.

That could be an anomaly in favor of the A4 world or not.

That said, my hypothesis are better coils (more expensive) are not the weak link in an pertronix system. But in an A4 with a $30ish coil... they are if you are at the 4 amp limit of IE, it is a question of your coil failing or your ignition.

We know which is cheaper to fix... so just buy a MM coil.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 06-24-2020 at 01:57 AM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 99.30.185.198
Old 06-24-2020, 08:28 AM
thatch thatch is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Santa clarita, Ca.
Posts: 1,059
Thanks: 148
Thanked 195 Times in 114 Posts
One part of this equation that has not been addressed is Muntasel's comment in post #1 about a possible charging system problem. If it is an over-voltage situation, along with it would come higher currents than normal. The Pertronix EI module has a built in breaker that will definitely shut it down and then reset itself once it has cooled down. This was verified by the factory while I was chasing down a very similar shutdown issue in an automotive application. I'd certainly make sure that the charging system was functioning properly before going any further.
Thatch
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to thatch For This Useful Post:
Dave Neptune (06-24-2020), Sam (06-24-2020), Surcouf (06-24-2020)
  #24   IP: 73.147.224.246
Old 06-26-2020, 04:56 PM
Muntasel Muntasel is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 7
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well interesting discussion and references on the matter. I am very grateful for all of you sharing the knowledge.
Just to update on my last few days of trials...the bottom line is that the engine runs.
I first ran it at the dock A good 30’ at 2000 Rpm (no one was around!) cowling off looking for any sign of abnormality. I measured the tension at the primary with the resistor in place and it varied between 9.5V (idle) to 12V (2000Rpm) the feed come from external Alternator Voltage regulator. I believe those numbers are acceptable. Coil never felt hot and the engine never quit. The only abnormality however was a slight drop in power coincident with a Temporary decrease in fuel flow observed in the Clear inline fuel filter. So at this point I suspected a possible pump issue. The fuel filter stays half full most of the time.

Took the boat out carrying a spare coil and motored a 45’ to 1’ Hour Over the course of 2 days. No issues. On the engine at least (discovered a wobble in the prop shaft but that’s a different can of worms for a different forum ah ah).
Still perplex of what could have resolved the issue at least for now Other than connect and disconnect voltage regulator and wires to the coil.

Again thank you for your input it certainly Added a big piece of personal knowledge on this engine!
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 71.222.36.208
Old 06-26-2020, 07:25 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 2,964
Thanks: 20
Thanked 282 Times in 198 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muntasel View Post
...discovered a wobble in the prop shaft but that’s a different can of worms for a different forum ah ah
Don't sell the gang here on MMI short...
Probably the best advice you can find on that issue will be right here! 😉
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seized and broken valves from hot exhaust issue. Mo Troubleshooting 1 06-08-2020 04:28 PM
intermittent misfire, new issue with rebuild Cool Beans Troubleshooting 25 05-31-2015 10:53 AM
Intermittent stall, Fuel issue? robshepherd Troubleshooting 32 06-05-2013 11:54 AM
Troubleshooting engine shut down issue cfergu22 Troubleshooting 41 08-25-2012 12:41 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2020 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved