helping a Tartan 27 owner with an A4

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • capnward
    Afourian MVP
    • Aug 2012
    • 335

    #16
    input from mechanical fuel pump crew.

    If you put 1 or 2 ounces of MMO into each cylinder, it will definitely emerge into the carburetor, and you will have to take the carb off, disassemble it and clean out the oil. The reason it goes into the carb is the cylinders are not directly below the spark plugs, but off toward the alternator side of the engine. If you just put MMO straight down from the spark plug holes, most of it will go into the valves, and down into the carb. This has happened to me, and now I use some sort of tubing or large drinking straw to direct the MMO directly to the cylinders. One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
    The hand bail on the mechanical pump will often have a small range of motion, depending on where the engine is in its rotation. It should still pump fuel, however, unless there is a fuel valve closed upstream of the pump. Once you know that fuel valve is open, you should be able to fill the stainless bowl just before the pump with the hand bail. If the stainless bowl is empty, the valve in the fuel line is definitely closed, unless the engine hasn't been run since the bowl was attached. When you are able to hand operate the pump until gas flows all the way to the float valve in the carburetor and pressurizes the fuel line , the pump bail will go limp with no resistance. The range of motion of the bail decreases as you pressurize the fuel system.You can hear gas flow through the filters, the pump, and into the carb as you pump the bail, until everything is full of gas. In my experience there is no vapor lock with a mechanical fuel pump. It will pump air, and inhale (here I avoid the four letter word that begins with s and ends with k) the gas through the fuel lines and filters, fill the pump bowl, and push the gas up against the float valve. This will make the needle in your fuel pressure gauge, if you have one, move off its peg and read about 3. If the gauge doesn't hold pressure you have a leak and need to look for it, or your float valve does not seal well and gas will come out the bottom of the carb into the air intake. If your pump diaphragm is broken, gas will go into the crankcase, and your fuel lines will not pressurize. This has never happened to me in 2600 hours of operation. I believe using MMO in the fuel keeps the diaphragm from drying out, and using non-ethanol gas keeps the rubber from degrading. Once there is fuel pressure, the engine should start right up with little cranking, if compression, spark, choke, and timing are in proper order.

    Comment

    • romantic comedy
      Afourian MVP
      • May 2007
      • 1943

      #17
      Originally posted by capnward View Post
      If you put 1 or 2 ounces of MMO into each cylinder, it will definitely emerge into the carburetor, and you will have to take the carb off, disassemble it and clean out the oil. The reason it goes into the carb is the cylinders are not directly below the spark plugs, but off toward the alternator side of the engine. If you just put MMO straight down from the spark plug holes, most of it will go into the valves, and down into the carb. This has happened to me, and now I use some sort of tubing or large drinking straw to direct the MMO directly to the cylinders. One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
      The hand bail on the mechanical pump will often have a small range of motion, depending on where the engine is in its rotation. It should still pump fuel, however, unless there is a fuel valve closed upstream of the pump. Once you know that fuel valve is open, you should be able to fill the stainless bowl just before the pump with the hand bail. If the stainless bowl is empty, the valve in the fuel line is definitely closed, unless the engine hasn't been run since the bowl was attached. When you are able to hand operate the pump until gas flows all the way to the float valve in the carburetor and pressurizes the fuel line , the pump bail will go limp with no resistance. The range of motion of the bail decreases as you pressurize the fuel system.You can hear gas flow through the filters, the pump, and into the carb as you pump the bail, until everything is full of gas. In my experience there is no vapor lock with a mechanical fuel pump. It will pump air, and inhale (here I avoid the four letter word that begins with s and ends with k) the gas through the fuel lines and filters, fill the pump bowl, and push the gas up against the float valve. This will make the needle in your fuel pressure gauge, if you have one, move off its peg and read about 3. If the gauge doesn't hold pressure you have a leak and need to look for it, or your float valve does not seal well and gas will come out the bottom of the carb into the air intake. If your pump diaphragm is broken, gas will go into the crankcase, and your fuel lines will not pressurize. This has never happened to me in 2600 hours of operation. I believe using MMO in the fuel keeps the diaphragm from drying out, and using non-ethanol gas keeps the rubber from degrading. Once there is fuel pressure, the engine should start right up with little cranking, if compression, spark, choke, and timing are in proper order.
      Capt I put plenty of MMO in the cylinders and it goes wherever it goes. If any MMO gets to the carb there will be no problem. It would only be in the throat and not the bowl or jets.

      I pour MMO into the spark arrester also. Some does drip out but there is no carb clogging. I think it is beneficial to the carb if anything.

      Comment

      • tenders
        Afourian MVP
        • May 2007
        • 1451

        #18
        So many rescuers...and no victim to be found

        Comment

        • sastanley
          Afourian MVP
          • Sep 2008
          • 7030

          #19
          Originally posted by capnward View Post
          One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
          I finally found one of these after a long search in all the Auto Boutique stores..Metal can, metal flexible tube and a threaded CAP! It sill leaks though, so it has to be in a Tupperware container to contain the MMO that seeps down the sides of the can.

          Great explanation on the mech fuel pump too..I didn't feel like typing that much. I love my mechanical fuel pump.
          -Shawn
          "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
          "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
          sigpic

          Comment

          • JOHN COOKSON
            Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
            • Nov 2008
            • 3501

            #20
            Originally posted by sastanley View Post
            I finally found one of these after a long search in all the Auto Boutique stores..Metal can, metal flexible tube and a threaded CAP! It sill leaks though, so it has to be in a Tupperware container to contain the MMO that seeps down the sides of the can.
            I have a pump oil can with a flexible spout. Works great for this sort of use.

            TRUE GRIT

            Comment

            • sastanley
              Afourian MVP
              • Sep 2008
              • 7030

              #21
              Another idea is to re-use those 3-in-One plastic teardrop shaped dispensers with the extendable spout..not an old school metal pump can, but it works pretty good too...and with the clear tubing, you can see the oil on its way down the tube.


              -Shawn
              "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
              "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
              sigpic

              Comment

              • capnward
                Afourian MVP
                • Aug 2012
                • 335

                #22
                Originally posted by romantic comedy View Post
                Capt I put plenty of MMO in the cylinders and it goes wherever it goes. If any MMO gets to the carb there will be no problem. It would only be in the throat and not the bowl or jets.

                I pour MMO into the spark arrester also. Some does drip out but there is no carb clogging. I think it is beneficial to the carb if anything.
                Romantic,
                Thanks for correctly pointing out that the MMO wouldn't get into the bowl or jets. After putting plenty of MMO down the spark plug holes, the engine wouldn't start. I then noticed MMO dripping from the choke shaft in the air intake. I removed and cleaned the carb of oil and the engine started. Thus my assumption that too much MMO in the throat of the carb inhibits starting. I may be wrong.

                Comment

                • CalebD
                  Afourian MVP
                  • May 2007
                  • 900

                  #23
                  Originally posted by tenders View Post
                  So many rescuers...and no victim to be found
                  Yeah, I apologize for stirring the pot. I had hoped the fella that is having the problems would have found his way over to this great resource once I provided the link to this discussion. Guess I'll have to keep sending him the link.

                  Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
                  Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
                  A4 and boat are from 1967

                  Comment

                  • Fishguy
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2017
                    • 21

                    #24
                    I'm here now, thanks for all the input, I had started another post on here, http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10203 , but this one is getting more attention. Thank you Caleb and everyone! I am looking to get this thing running! Thanks for the insight about the MMO getting into the carb. I'm glad that was to be expected. I do have a portable gas tank that I can rig up to feed the engine. So here is where I am now.

                    So, I bought a rebuilt starter from a local engine shop for $180, they will give me $30 for the old one but, I'm thinking I might get it rebuilt and keep as a spare? I need to look at a wiring diagram, I could only get it to work by jumping the battery directly to the solenoid temporarily... Tested the old starter, it was definitely not working... Had bought a compression tester at harbor freight, compression reads 60 at each except #1 which was 30, though maybe I had worn down the battery by then... Checked for spark off a plug got nothing, checked off the coil and got nothing... All that has been done so far in regards to ignition is 2 new batteries, new plugs and wires...

                    I'm thinking that compression is low? Is it still salvageable? I did add a bit more marvel mystery oil to each cylinder...

                    Thoughts and direction appreciated



                    Thanks,

                    Tim
                    Last edited by Fishguy; 06-27-2017, 01:28 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Fishguy
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2017
                      • 21

                      #25
                      Originally posted by tenders View Post
                      My order of attack would be:

                      2 - Address the compression/valve issues - a cheap compression gauge from Harbor Freight would be more than adequate; the Marvel leakback is unremarkable in an engine that hasn't been run. Guessing the valves are a little stuck and tapping them down with an Allen wrench through the spark plug holes will get them moving again, possibly also with the inclusion of some MMO in the fuel for added lubrication once the engine is started again
                      So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are bolts on the valves that I can access through the spark plug holes and I should loosen and tighten them? Also I will find something that I can direct the MMO over to them as suggested by others.

                      Or am I screwed with 60-60-60-30 compression?

                      Comment

                      • roadnsky
                        Afourian MVP
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 3127

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Fishguy View Post
                        So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are bolts on the valves that I can access through the spark plug holes and I should loosen and tighten them?
                        What you can access from the spark plug holes is the TOP of the valves.
                        You use this access to lightly tap them back down.
                        The weapon of choice here is an Allen wrench.


                        Or am I screwed with 60-60-60-30 compression?
                        Can you give us a quick description of your compression test procedure?
                        (The steps you took for getting those readings?)
                        -Jerry

                        'Lone Ranger'
                        sigpic
                        1978 RANGER 30

                        Comment

                        • Fishguy
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2017
                          • 21

                          #27
                          Originally posted by roadnsky View Post
                          What you can access from the spark plug holes is the TOP of the valves.
                          You use this access to lightly tap them back down.
                          The weapon of choice here is an Allen wrench.




                          Can you give us a quick description of your compression test procedure?
                          (The steps you took for getting those readings?)
                          Thanks for the clarification on the valves, I'm definitely not a mechanic, but I'm not afraid to work on things...

                          To check compression(first time I've checked compression on anything)

                          I pulled out the spark plug

                          Threaded in and hand tightened the correct hose for the compression gauge, it seemed to seat well.

                          Then I cranked over the engine for approx 5-7 seconds until the gauge stopped climbing

                          Tried cranking again to see if any difference, there never was any

                          Made a note of the reading

                          Removed the hose and replaced the plug

                          I did this for all four and was getting power by using a jumper cable directly from a battery to solenoid, batteries are both new, but had been used to power the stereo that day.

                          Thanks!

                          Comment

                          • Marty Levenson
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 689

                            #28
                            test

                            Sounds like a good test: stereo won't drain batteries much.

                            If it were me, I would do a WET test next: put a teaspoon of MMO in each cylinder, wait ten minutes, and repeat the test you just did. If the numbers go up significantly the rings are the problem. If not, the valves are your next focus.
                            Marty
                            1967 Tartan 27
                            Bowen Island, BC

                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • roadnsky
                              Afourian MVP
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 3127

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Fishguy View Post
                              ...Removed the hose and replaced the plug
                              Don't worry about not being a mechanic. Most of us here are just like you.
                              I had virtually zero engine knowledge when I first started working on my A4 and joined this forum. Stay here and you'll get all of the knowledge you can use.

                              Only thing I'd suggest for the compression test is...
                              usually you would remove ALL four of the spark plugs rather than one at a time.
                              I don't think that would make such a big difference to drastically change your readings but one of the more knowledgable members (paging Dave Neptune) could comment with more expertise.

                              It does sound like you have a stuck valve or two though.

                              Here is the COMPRESSION TEST PROCEDURE that I use:

                              Test the engine while its warm, as you'll get different readings hot and cold.
                              Your readings will be higher on a hot engine, but if it passes cold it will pass hot.

                              1. Make sure water intake is shut off so you don't fill exhaust system with water which will then enter the cylinders.
                              (You're not actually going to run the engine during the test so it won't need any cooling)
                              2. Remove all spark plugs. Cover the holes with a rag.
                              3. Remove coil wire, disable fuel pump if electric (remove fuse or disconnect wire)
                              4. Open throttle to wide open and leave it there.
                              5. Screw tester into spark plug hole 1 and crank engine with starter for a few seconds.
                              You'll see the pressure on the gauge go up in steps and max out.
                              When it tops out, that's the reading.
                              6. Repeat on other cylinders.

                              If the readings are low or vary more than about 10% from one cylinder to the next, add a tablespoon of motor oil through the spark plug hole of the low cylinder(s).
                              If this increases the pressure significantly, it indicates worn rings or valve guides (the oil acts to seal the gap somewhat).
                              If it doesn't change it's more likely a valve that's sticking or not closing all the way.

                              Keep at it. We'll get you running.
                              -Jerry

                              'Lone Ranger'
                              sigpic
                              1978 RANGER 30

                              Comment

                              • roadnsky
                                Afourian MVP
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 3127

                                #30
                                Admin Bill-
                                I just read the other thread that FISHGUY had started earlier.
                                It has pics of his setup and some more history.

                                Do you think it'd help merging the two?
                                -Jerry

                                'Lone Ranger'
                                sigpic
                                1978 RANGER 30

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X