Frozen A4

[JasonAmbrose]

I am the proud new owner of a Tartan 30 that came with an A4 that is frozen. I have spent some time searching the archives, have the Moyer manual (came with the boat!), and a few other A4 resources.

1) I am not a mechanic by any stretch but am trying to work my way through the assessment and hopeful repair...but I apologize if my questions seem basic as this is my first large boat (first was a 22 with a small outboard) and I am very much a novice.

Here is where I'm at:
-The batteries are good according to the hydrometer readings.
-When I first tried to start it, there was a loud "clunk" then nothing. I removed the starter, bench tested it, and verified it works as designed. The clunk seems to be the gear engaging the flywheel but not being able to move it.
-I am unable to turn the flywheel with a screwdriver through the bore for the starter.
-I removed sparkplugs and poured 50/50 ATF and Acetone mix into the head. The mix promptly poured right into the blige from the carburetor (did I do something wrong/miss something to have the mix flow right out?)
-I have removed the flame arrestor to clean and carburetor for a rebuild (will be doing this over the next few days)

If it helps:
-Based on the diagrams in the manuals, mine is a late model A4
-Manual fuel pump
-raw water cooled
-as with all Tartan 30s, the engine is located just to the aft of the mast and just port of center line, oriented with the flywheel facing forward and a few inches from the bulkhead to the head (access to the alternator side is wide open, access to the carburetor side is very tight against the settee).

Appreciate any help or guidance with getting this old A4 back to running condition!

Jason

[TomG]

Hi Jason,

Welcome to the forum!

There is a wealth of knowledge here, and although none of it is provided by me, I'll offer a few thoughts (mostly philosophical) as a fellow T-30 owner. The real smart folks will soon offer solid advice on getting your A-4 running again, assuming there aren't more sinister problems (i.e., cracked block).

The Tartan 30 (and 34) are well-suited for the novice A-4 mechanic. Access to the engine is hard to beat! This is one of the design features I love most about my T-30. As you also know, the T-30's engine sits very low in the boat, almost touching the keel bolts in a few places. This certainly helps sailing qualities, but it leaves very little room for the exhaust system to drop water into a waterlift muffler system. This creates a problem when hard starting occurs and the water intake is left open for water to back up from the exhaust waterlift and flood the engine. This can create all kinds of problems with stuck or sticky valves (cylinders 3 and 4 especially as the engine sits noticeably tail down), and worse, frozen pistons. One of the very first upgrades I tackled was removing the old waterlift and installing the standpipe system offered by our host MMI. When you are up and running, the standpipe exhaust will save you A LOT of aggravation.

Moyer offers a tool called the "ignition Timing Crank" that could prove very helpful to you. This tool fits over the end of the crankshaft and notches over the roll pin on the crank. This offers tremendous leverage when trying to rotate the crankshaft. The timing crank tool the I have fits a 3/4" socket on the end, which is ideal for us T-30 types with very little clearance between the flywheel end and the bulkhead. A call to Ken in parts might yield this tool since I no longer see it listed in the catalog.

I would not be surprised about the carb intake filling with the 50/50 mix. It's likely one (two?) of the intake valves are open and the fluid just filled up in the cylinder and ran out the open valve.

How does the oil look? Is it clear and clean or milky?

If the oil looks milky (that's usually water from somewhere), you might be in for a bit of work. If the oil looks good, that's a good sign (but not a definite). Keep after it with the 50/50 ATF/Acetone for a week or more. If you can't free the pistons with the starter or crankshaft adapter, you might have to pull the head. We are so lucky on our setup that pulling the head is not too terribly hard to do.

Great idea to rebuild the carb. I recommend the kit from MMI. Get a new impeller and the extendo-bolt while you're on the phone with Ken.

The smart guys with the big A-4 brains will be along shortly. Heed their wisdom and you'll be fine.

[joe_db]

The A4 spark plug holes may not be a straight drop into the cylinders. When pouring your penetrating oil in, you might want to angle the spout over to the starboard side of the engine (away from the starter). If you do that, you can fill the cylinder bore up to the level of the valves.
Be aware this engine is NOT overhead valves. The valves are on the port side in the block, not the head. If you fill up to their level, the oil will run into the manifold.
Also try a big breaker bar on a flywheel bolt to turn the engine
Tom - where is your boat? Our dock is looking empty!

[Marian Claire]

(away from the starter) ???
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[edwardc]

Jason,

Welcome to the forum! You'll find an almost limitless amount of A4 knowledge and help here. And don't worry about asking beginner questions, we were all beginners once! The only dumb question is one you didn't ask!

You'll find that the A4 is a tough little beast, almost indestructible. About the only that thing that can fatally hurt one is a cracked block. Short of that, anything is fixable.

We are particularly blessed by the outstanding support provided by Moyer Marine (MMI), our host here. The easy and affordable availability of parts ranging from head nuts to entire blocks to fully rebuilt engines gives us an enormous amount of flexibility when it comes to making time <-> money trade-offs.

As for your frozen engine, keep dousing it with penetrante, and working the crank with the aforementioned tool or one of your own devising. This is going to take patience. Try to work it back and forth rather than applying so much force that something breaks. Once it starts to wiggle (and it will!), keep working it back and forth to gradually free it rather than trying to force it in one go. This should minimize the chance of scarring up the cylinder walls.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

[JOHN COOKSON]

You'll find that the A4 is a tough little beast, almost indestructible. About the only that thing that can fatally hurt one is a cracked block. Short of that, anything is fixable.
!

A pressure test of the cooling system is a good idea before you get to far down the road. If the cooling system is breached the engine will have to be pulled. In this situation MMI short block is an option.
Another welcome to the forum.

TRUE GRIT

[TomG]

Tom - where is your boat? Our dock is looking empty!

Yeah, I was down there yesterday to pay the slip fee. It's real quiet on J-dock! I hauled out last fall to do some work and life kept getting in the way of getting the boat back in this year. Parents and in-laws with health problems, kids in college, travel, work, a hobby that morphed into a business, and more than a few snags with new standing rigging all conspired to keep me land-locked this year. I'll be back in the spring though!

[Marian Claire]

Hopefully these pics come thru.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=1187

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=1185

Using the bolt pattern to line things up you can see what the other members are describing with the plug holes somewhat between the valves and the cylinders.
Welcome to the forum.
The pics are of a early model block and head but do not let that throw you.
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[Oldlaxer1]

Welcome to the forum from another Tartan 30 owner. You'll get plenty of good advice here from the true experts. Once you free up the cylinders you may find that you also have stuck valve(s). Head removal is fairly straight forward on our boat. Hopefully the penetrant will do the trick. Be patient and as was mentioned earlier, move it back and forth, not hard in one direction. Access to the roll pin on the crankshaft may require an access hole in the bulkhead between the motor and the head and then get this:http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...=IGLM_17.1_479 and add extensions as necessary.

If you have specific Tartan 30 questions, feel free to ask!
All the best,
John

[joe_db]

(away from the starter) ???
Dan S/V Marian Claire

TOWARD the starter!
D'oh

[Al Schober]

I'm another long time T30 owner (there are several of us here).
Keep at it with the penetrant - might take a while (2 weeks, 2 months?). The rings have probably corroded themselves to the block. The pistons are aluminum, so they're not going to corrode. The block is a high nickel alloy which is quite resistant to corrosion (despite the appearance of some neglected A4s). All that's left are the rings - I suspect they're just cast iron.
If you overdo things trying to break things loose, all you're going to lose is a piston or two. You do risk breaking the land between the rings loose from the body of the piston. Check our hosts' catalog for the price of a piston & you'll see how careful to be..
Get that baby turning over and then we can see how the valves are doing.
You may not be a mechanic now and you may not be when you get that beast running, but you will be a lot more confident to take it where you want to go - knowing that you can get it to bring you home again. Furthest I've had engine problems was St John River, NB Canada. Corrected the issue and got home to CT with no further problems.

[tenders]

It’s January, you have great access to the engine, she’s frozen, the valves are probably stuck, and it’s all new to you. I don’t think you would regret taking the head off to get a lot more clarity on what’s going on here. You’ll be able to jimmy the valves a bit, get the lubricant right on top of the stuck pistons, maybe be able to detect which pistons are frozen, see the condition of the block, deal with any stud issues all at once, and replace the head gasket when she’s spinning again. Maybe hit the head with a fresh coat or two of high-temp paint while it’s off.

Edit: nor does it require special tools. Socket, mallet, paint scrapers and/or thin wood strips as wedges, patience, mild to moderate obscenities, and off she comes.

[tenders]

a hobby that morphed into a business

Tom is being both modest and subtle. This is somebody’s, not mine, probably unsanctioned, replay of the TV show linked above on which he was featured. Starts at 5:55.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxnkYLGpNwI

[ndutton]

I have one of Tom's pens and it is first class all the way. I pray he offers refill cartridges when mine runs out.

[Launchpad McQ]

Hi Jason!

Check out my thread, or at least what I've uploaded so far.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10561

I had the exact same problem at the beginning of my rebuild. I used mostly Marvel Mystery oil squirted down the spark plug holes in daily intervals using one of these handy things from the auto parts store:

A lot of the MMO ended up down the carb.




Good luck and don't bust your crankshaft roll pin like I did!