Port Tack = Lots of Cranking

[Silver Fox]

Hello everyone,

This is a whacky theory, but I figure no better place to get it shot down by those more experienced than me, so I can move past it and onto what the real problem is likely to be... so here goes:

I think that after sailing for at least an hour, and with substantial time heeling on Port tack, the fuel level in the tank (starboard side) can be lower in height above sea level, than the fuel level in the Carb and Mech fuel pump, and the result is that while sailing like this, the fuel slowly siphons out of the fuel system and back into the tank.

Ok, that's my theory based only on having starting issues when starting the engine after a good sail. Ie: the engine has to crank for quite a while before firing. I figure its caused by fuel needing to prime back through the system. I tested the Compression and Spark, and they are normal.

What do you all think??? Is this reverse fuel flow on Port possible (fuel tank is on Starboard side, and at rest; the bottom of the tank is probably around 4 - 6 inches higher than the carb/mech fuel pump), or is the system sealed and unable to flow backwards???

Anyone else experience similar starting problems after sailing for a while???

Let rip!
Thanks,
Ralph.

[Dave Neptune]

Backflow

Ralph, yes it could flow back IF the check valves are not holding on the mechanical pump, which is what I assume you have. If you are using an electric pump it should reprime the syswtem as soon as you turn on the key.

If you have a mechanical pump next time try using the PRIMING bale on the pump before starting. If you can pump it a couple of times before it "holds" the fuel is deffinately flowing back.

Dave Neptune

[Mark S]

This is a whacky theory...

Not whacky at all. That's why designers try to locate the fuel tank on the boat's centerline.

Mark

[sastanley]

primer?

Dave,

Does the mech fuel pump cam need to be in a certain position for the priming arm to work? Sometimes I cannot move it at all. Is that fuel pressure, or the cam holding it?

I have been trying to use the boat frequently (fuel staying in the line) enough that I can crank for 15 seconds and she'll start, so I don't have to bother with the priming. I think if I ever get my choke cable adjusted properly, I might be able to get this cranking time down even more.

[ndutton]

YIKES SHAWN!!!
15 SECONDS OF CRANKING TO START??

That seems like an eternity to me, especially on a Catalina 30 (low exhaust riser, small aqualift). I dunno, maybe it's the norm and I'm just spoiled but mine fires within 1 second of turning the key. If she's been sitting for a month or more, maybe 2 seconds.

[sastanley]

long cranking times

Neil,

I don't really know any different. I usually crank for 15 and give the starter/battery a rest. The second time, it usually coughs and comes to life in 10 seconds or so. This may be two weeks in between usage. If it has just been overnight, it may only be 10 seconds.

I know that this engine was drowned twice prior to me owning it by over-cranking (my father was the P.O.) so, after reading various threads here for months and months while I had the boat on the hard drying out over winter, (especially all the C-30 specific stuff), my start up procedure since taking ownership has been to pull the cushion & board, leave the thru-hull closed, and crank. Once the engine starts, I go open the thru-hull. Cleaning up a drowned motor is messy work..I'd rather replace an impeller that has been run dry.

Once it is warm, it will start more quickly, no choke, in maybe 2 or 3 seconds. I will admit I have a choke adjustment problem...right now if I pull the knob out to 'full choke' to start a cold engine, the cable gets stuck, and I have to go manually open (unstick) the choke at the carb...I figure I am getting 75% choke if I pull it enough to avoid it sticking (= 15 seconds crank time to start). Recent rotator cuff surgery has prevented me from getting two hands on anything , even holding tools, to make any adjustments. I still have one automatic trans vehicle in the family, and until recently, have even been shifting from Park to Drive with my left hand! Even starting the motor (pumping the throttle & turning the key simultaneously) was a challenge as I was given strict instructions to not move my shoulder! I contorted myself over, so I could turn the key with my shoulder idle, and use my other arm to do throttle work.

I am just glad the old girl usually runs reliably once I get her started! I am getting some shoulder use back now, so I am hoping to get down to the boat and do some fiddling soon.

sorry for the thread hijack Silver Fox...nice avatar!!

[Silver Fox]

Slow Start

Hi Shawn,

On Silver Fox we have the exact same starting scenario as you, right down to the choke pull not working properly!!!

After sitting for a week, it will take 10 seconds of cranking, and then she will cough, splutter, backfire, hesitate, burp, fart, and eventually..... start. I'll need to have full throttle, and ease back once the sound is of a real start and she is no longer relying on the starter motor to turn over...

Like you, I am pretty used to it, and figure so long as she starts, that's the main thing!

But it sure would be nice if it was quicker to start, and less demanding on the battery and starter motor, etc.

Anyone have any tips for us to try, in addition to getting the choke cables fixed???

Thanks,
Ralph.

[charles@pricefarrington.c]

Mine was hard starting until I replaced the carb. She now starts on the first push of the button. My conclusion is that the carb was leaking and probably flooded all the time.

[sastanley]

charles,

Interesting you mention that as I have just acquired a spare carb, courtesy of another Moyer forum member. (thanks Jerry! ) As far as I know, the currently installed carb is original, and probably ONLY had work done to it when a non-running engine required the PO to crack it open. I simply do not have good enough data to report on the choke issue prior to my fiddling with it mid-summer when I realized I probably wasn't getting it closed all the way, which has now resulted in sticky operation so I don't dare pull it too far

My plan is to take the 'new-to-me' carb apart and clean it and re-assemble it and have it ready in my box of spares. Then I can simply swap them out and see if it makes any difference! However, last winter I did this with the current carb and really didn't have any trouble getting it to run this spring, and also started with all new fuel, tank, lines & Racor filter in May.

[rigspelt]

After I installed a new fuel pump, new carb, new choke cable, new fuel lines, electronic ignition module, new plug wires, new ignition panel and new wiring, the engine starts on the first click every time. It had been a bear to start before. No idea which one part had the most effect, but as I recall it started much better before I replaced the carb but after rebuilding the old one. I went on to replace the carb after the rebuild when it seemed to have a persistent float valve leak.

[sastanley]

cranking update - sorry to keep hijacking Silver Fox

First, apologies to Silver Fox for the continued hijacking of his thread...I didn't see a need to start a new one, since we are still sorta on topic.

So, my lovely wife & I spent the weekend on the boat. Except for a few day sails, this will probably be the last weekend we get to spend on the boat this season, as now it is time for me to buckle down on school work & some fall projects around the house. I am also planning to pull the rig later this fall & replace standing rigging & few lights & wiring, so we'll be motoring back & forth in the creek a few times without a stick too. We can usually sail almost all winter around here, if we dress for it..only occasionally do we get iced in, & sometimes we get a 50 degree day in December or January. Kinda hard with no mast though

On to the engine...
I ignored my choke 'problem' this weekend and pulled it as far out as I could for starting, and she started almost immediately, within 2 or 3 seconds, and very little throttle! - Then, I had to go down and grab the choke butterfly linkage and unstick the cable from the clamp supporting the cable housing. However, it solidified the theory that I was simply not getting the choke closed enough to start the engine when cold, thus the extended cranking time. This proved to be the case both times this weekend, Saturday afternoon when the engine had sat for almost 3 weeks & then again Sunday morning when it had sat overnight.

It looks like I need to mess with the cable & linkage, so I can get the choke closed more fully for cold start ups, without it getting stuck. I am all the way at the end of the cable (attachment to the choke linkage) so I am wondering if maybe I need to remove a short section of the housing, so I have more travel along the exposed length of cable, before the linkage gets stuck. Without measuring, I would guess there is about 3/8" of housing sticking out past the supporting clamp adjacent to the choke linkage. I could also have a kink or other problem. I need to go down to the boat when I don't plan to use it and do some analysis of the cable behavior. Can you lubricate these solid rod cables like an old speedo cable?

Incidentally, except for a slightly dirty prop, which I can now instantly recognize as soon as I throttle up leaving the slip, the engine ran beautifully all weekend..Sat evening the breeze was light and we got on the water later than expected, so we motored to our anchorage to get there before dark. Sunday, we sat on the hook a while & then lazily putzed around some local creeks doing some exploring....it is so nice to wander up and down quiet creeks with such a quiet motor! We even got to do some sailing in the afternoon since the breeze was up.

[Silver Fox]

Hijack Away!

I read Shawn's report, and next time out also fully engaged the choke "for starting, and she started almost immediately, within 2 or 3 seconds, and very little throttle!" This again solidified "the theory that I was simply not getting the choke closed enough to start the engine when cold, thus the extended cranking time."

Thanks for sharing your findings Shawn, I fully concur. I wish all fixes could be this easy!

Then I worked on freeing up the choke cable by pulling it out of the boat (I should say removing it from the boat - but it wasn't a controlled nor engineered process, so "yanked/ripped it out" might be better terminology).

Anyhow, once I 'removed' it from the boat I found that the cable was badly rusted within its cover, and, as it is about 7 feet long, I figured there must be rust the whole length of the cable. I freed and lubed it up enough to work again (inner cable sliding in and out), but did not think it would be long before it froze up again (and set off the foul language machine), so I installed a home made choke cable, and when things settle down I will purchase a new cable from MMI.

One problem down, 834 to go...

Fair Winds,
Ralph.

[sastanley]

Hi Ralph,

My latest theory is that my choke cable is a little too long and it binds due to its length, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12' or so, since my engine is under the galley.

I've decided on this because I had to yank the carb last night (story in another thread), and when I disconnected the choke cable, I had about 1.5" of extra length of cable extending past the choke butterfly after it was no longer attached to the carb. So, I guess what's happening is when clamped into position on the choke mechanism the cable is binding. I may try to shorten it a little bit and see if this fixes the binding problem. Right now I've gotten it so I can use max choke and then get it open via the cable about 60% of the time. I am hoping for 100% eventually.

The only problem with shortening the cable is making it too short

"I don't understand...I cut it twice and it is still too short!"

Glad yours is better too!

[sailbristol]

choke cables

if you take care and semi straighten the carb end of the cable you can pull it right out of the surrounding jacket . wipe the rust off it and lube it up good then put back in ,you might have to turn it a little while reinserting but it will go be patient.

[Dave Neptune]

Choke cable

Shawn, try a little 3in1 oil on the cable at both ends and work it back and forth while disconnected from the choke to work the oil into the bowels of the housing. Just a few drops and let it sit for a day or so and work again. It should slide easily and not bind. Sometimes it is easier to remove the cable from the housig while cleaning it and then slide it back in while a little oily. If the cable (get the kinks out of the cable and dull the end first) will not go back in then the integrity of the housing is shot usually the plastic coated/sealed type. I have had far less trouble with the wire wound type myself.

Dave Neptune