Engine dies after 30+ seconds

[Crazer]

I have a five year old Moyer remanufactured A4 with very few hours on it. I have used it about a half dozen times this season. When I got it, the tank was full of gas which had been sitting for about two years. I treated the gas and fired up the engine and she purred like a kitten right up until about two weeks ago. When leaving my mooring she suddenly died, about a minute after I fired her up. I said "huh, sounds like a fuel issue" and hoisted the sails. About four hours later, I fired her up to get back to the marina. She would run good for a while, but then hesitate and stall. It took us about 45 minutes to get back the marina and in the time she stalled about 5-6 times. Each time, I got her running again pretty much right away. It got worse as we got closer. Once I was back on the mooring I started to run her under different conditions and this is what I found:

-In neutral, I could get her to run for 5 minutes, give or take a couple. Usually take. Throttle at idle.

-Under load, at about 3/4 throttle she'd run for about 30-50 seconds and die. It appeared that if I pulled the throttle back, I'd get a little more time before she'd die.

-The engine got progressively harder to start. If I gave it some time before trying to restart, it may have been that she started more easily, but if so the difference was negligible. Usually she'll fire up in 2-3 seconds, so by "harder" I mean 5-7 seconds of cranking.

-Fiddling with the choke may have helped ever so slightly at first. Later, it seemed to have little to no effect.

As a matter of course, I removed the carb and now have it apart. It looks clean. The bowl was dry (completely empty of fuel) when I pulled it and no fuel came out of the line when I pull it off the carb. I also started to remove the Racor fuel filter, and when I tilted the filter sideways bright yellow-orange gas came out of the line, possibly with grunge in it although that may have already been in the receiving vessel, I don't know for sure. I have not removed the inline filter. My course of action would be to clean and reassemble the carb, clean the pick up and change the fuel filters (if I can ever get the damn Racor apart.) Does that make sense?

I also have a separate, minor issue. The oil pressure has been consistently high-about 80 psi. I didn't notice until about the 3rd time I had the boat out. Not to say that I wasn't paying attention, I just didn't know what the correct pressure was. Is this a serious problem? I think there's something wrong with the way the gauge is reading since that seems impossibly high. Oil was changed before the boat was put away and the level was normal when I checked it.

Thanks in advance!

Avery
Pearson Wanderer #102 "Loon"

[Mo]

Hi Avery,

Few things. Yes, sounds like a fuel issue...not necessarily a fuel pump issue but that could be as well. Treating fuel that has been in a tank has little to no effect unless you do it when the fuel is added ...adding stabilizer to old fuel does nothing for it. You have entered the quagmire of fuel issues.

The only sure way to sort is out is to remove old fuel from tank, clean the tank as best you can and..
-remove your water separator and check for water and or dirt.
-change fuel filters and water separator element.
-remove and clean up the carb. There are some things like the main jet that should be checked but a good cleaning is in order.

Sounds overwhelming but the hardest part is getting the old fuel out. You can pick at various aspects of this hoping to get it running good but my opinion is effectively deal with the issue from tank to carb. If you have old rubber gas line hose that will require replacing due to ethanol in gas these days.

Wish I could offer a simple fix but your issue is one of the main reasons for atomic 4 engine trouble but once sorted out you will have your dependable engine back. I think that if you do not do a comprehensive job on the fuel system you will have recurrent problems when gunk in tank gets stirred up.

[Crazer]

Hi Mo,

Thanks for the reply. I think cleaning the tank is a given at this point. I am guessing the yellowish-orange color of the gas in the filter may come from rust in the tank. I took the carb apart and it looks clean, there was no sediment in the bowl and the main jet looked clear. I have not removed the idle jet but I will clean the whole deal with an aerosol carb cleaner and put it all back together. In the meantime I will try to get the fuel-water separator apart to change the filter. The fuel line to the tank is a metal line, the hoses between the filter and the carb are new. I can't really remove the tank without cutting the cockpit sole open, what is the best way to go about cleaning it? It's a big tank and there's a fair amount of gas in it. The boat is out on a mooring which makes things more difficult. Not sure how to get all that gas out.

[Sony2000]

If you change the fuel separater, you may be able to skip the tank cleaning. Try to cut the oil pressure in half. A $8 water pressure gauge from the plumbing store would remove your doubts.

[tenders]

With the carb that clean it sounds as though the filters have done a pretty good job keeping the fuel schmutz out of the engine.

There's no particular shortcut to getting old fuel out of the tank - and even if you could lift the tank out of the boat easily, you'd only want to do it once the tank is nearly empty anyway. To avoid wayward sparking i would not suggest using an electric pump, but I'm sure there are some which would work for the job. You could use a "Topsider" manual vacuum pump (normally used for oil changes, and very useful for that purpose later) to pull it out a few gallons at a time with minimal effort, or a brass hand pump to draw it out one stroke at a time. I would suggest having several gallon milk jugs on hand to put the old fuel in so you can let it settle and see what's going on - Caleb has several posts featuring his däg nastïï old fuel in such containers, for reference.

Once the fuel is out it would be a good idea to let a few quarts of acetone slosh around in the tank for a few days to dissolve any additional crud in the tank, then remove that the same way you got the gas out. At that point the tank is going to be about as clean as you can get it.

[sailbristol]

With the carb that clean it sounds as though the filters have done a pretty good job keeping the fuel schmutz out of the engine.

There's no particular shortcut to getting old fuel out of the tank - and even if you could lift the tank out of the boat easily, you'd only want to do it once the tank is nearly empty anyway. To avoid wayward sparking i would not suggest using an electric pump, but I'm sure there are some which would work for the job. You could use a "Topsider" manual vacuum pump (normally used for oil changes, and very useful for that purpose later) to pull it out a few gallons at a time with minimal effort, or a brass hand pump to draw it out one stroke at a time. I would suggest having several gallon milk jugs on hand to put the old fuel in so you can let it settle and see what's going on - Caleb has several posts featuring his däg nastïï old fuel in such containers, for reference.

Once the fuel is out it would be a good idea to let a few quarts of acetone slosh around in the tank for a few days to dissolve any additional crud in the tank, then remove that the same way you got the gas out. At that point the tank is going to be about as clean as you can get it.

Iwould not use acetone it flashes to quickly MEK or laquer thinner would be a better choice

[Mo]

Hi Mo,

Thanks for the reply. I think cleaning the tank is a given at this point. I am guessing the yellowish-orange color of the gas in the filter may come from rust in the tank. I took the carb apart and it looks clean, there was no sediment in the bowl and the main jet looked clear. I have not removed the idle jet but I will clean the whole deal with an aerosol carb cleaner and put it all back together. In the meantime I will try to get the fuel-water separator apart to change the filter. The fuel line to the tank is a metal line, the hoses between the filter and the carb are new. I can't really remove the tank without cutting the cockpit sole open, what is the best way to go about cleaning it? It's a big tank and there's a fair amount of gas in it. The boat is out on a mooring which makes things more difficult. Not sure how to get all that gas out.

The yellow to orange color is bad gas. There could be a slithery layer in in the bottom of the tank as well. I would think it may not be rust as such. Shaking the boat to stir it all up while pumping out may benefit your efforts.

Removing the gas: You could use an electric fuel pump and have 2 or 3 jerry cans to pump into. Rig a hose straight down your fill pipe. Some have used cordless drills and pumps as well. I used my spare electric fuel pump when I drained mine a few years back. Discard the fuel once you are done...don't even try splitting in and putting it in a car or something like that...it's history.

With the color you described I think allot had settled to the bottom of the tank then got stirred up as you made your way along....such is life. She will run fine once you sort it out.

[Crazer]

Thanks all for the responses. What is the consensus on using acetone vs. lacquer thinner or something else? I can get both the thinner and the acetone in gallons at the local hardware store. I'd be inclined to agree with sailbristol and avoid acetone. Being on a mooring might actually be a good thing, what with the need for sloshing the stuff around in the tank.

[sastanley]

crazer..I have had trouble with my Racor filter assembly every year I've taken it apart. This year I had to remove the whole thing from the boat and take home and put it on a vise because it broke my Racor filter wrench..a $3.99 strap wrench works much better. Servicing it is a PITA, but it does work.

Can you get the drain bolt out of the bottom of the bowl to see the condition of the fuel/water mixture in there?? Last year, I got water in the fuel tank..My engine would run for several minutes and die..I drained the bowl a few times, and got it to run without quitting. The fuel/water ratio that came out of the filter was about 50/50. I think what was happening was the filter was full of water and blocking fuel from getting to the carb...my fuel pressure gauge (highly recommended $15 gauge) was reading zero instead of its normal 3.5 PSI, so I knew it was a fuel delivery problem. The filter did exactly what it was supposed to, I just had to get the water it collected out of the filter to get fuel thru it.

Another issue may be the fuel pickup..it picks up and clogs and then drops the crud when the engine's off. Fire up and cycle repeats.

[Crazer]

Hi Shawn,

Glad to know the Racor problem is not just me! I'm going to try and get the thing off the boat today and take it home, too, to get it apart and change the filter. The drain plug is defying me as much as the rest of the filter. I do also have a topsider oil change pump, so I will get the gas out and report back on what I find. The pickup issue occurred to me too, either way I will drain and clean the tank and change all the filters and see what happens.

On a related note, for reasons that likely don't need explanation, I need to replace the two bolts holding the carb to the engine. What size are they? I've found replacements of the correct diameter but none of the right length. Does anyone have a source?

[sastanley]

carb bolts

Avery..with these types of parts sometimes you have to get creative and make your own. I took 2" maybe 2.25" stainless bolts and cut off the heads and made them studs. It was taking a long time to swap out the studs when changing carbs so I put a pair of studs on each. I used a dremel cut off wheel & a little grinding wheel to smooth and then a thread chaser kit to make sure the threads were cleaned up. Mine are long to accommodate the plate for my PCV kit.
Another option is to call Ken in parts here at Moyer. I am fairly certain they have parts available that are not on their website. :-)
P.s. I think they are 5/16" but don't hold me to that. I drag engine parts into the local Ace all the time.

[Carl-T705]

Why not get a small gas can, stick a fuel hose in it connected to the fuel pump and run the engine and see if it will run properly without dying.
I would buy a gallon or two of carburetor cleaner from the auto parts house and pour it into the empty fuel tank to clean it. Definetely run the bilge blower when working with fuel or cleaner. I don't think putting gas in a milk jug and transporting is a good idea nor is it legal.

[Crazer]

Hi Carl,

Good idea about the carb cleaner. I would try the gambit with a portable gas tank but the carb and filters are already removed, so might as well just go the whole nine yards. I don't think anyone was suggesting I transport the gas in milk cartons, only to put the dregs in one to see what condition the gas was in.

Shawn, I was thinking I might end up cutting down one of the bolts from the hardware store if I can't find them in the correct size.

[Dave Neptune]

Bolts too

Avery, on my beastie I drilled out the threads and filed the hole a bit "ob-long" at the top so I could just drop in a stainless "bolt" instead of messing with the studs and lengths. I found being able to access the carbs bolts from either side made it easier. And on the top side I can see the head of the bolt!
Not really a recommendation it just made it much easier for my set-up.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

Avery..as Dave noted, whatever works for you. The PCV kit I have cames with studs..I duplicated that set up so I have the same on each carb. However, with the studs, it is easy to lose the lock washers & nuts when trying to spin them on the top of hte flange during install, so you have to be careful. There is no reason that I can think of that an approrpriate length bolt wouldn't work fine in both applications. They can be a tiny bit too long too, but not so long that you jam into the idle mixture screw. A 'too long' bolt can be cut off & cleaned up just as easily as the head of a bolt if you were going to make studs.

In this case, at $0.65 or $0.70 a piece for SS bolts from the local h/w store, I'd buy two or three sets in slightly varying lengths..1.25", 1.5", 1.75". If I wasn't sure of the diameter, I'd get those lengths in both 1/4" & 5/16", hoping that one set would be the correct ones when I get to the boat. You can be cheap like me and keep your receipt and return the unused ones, or toss the leftovers in the "misc. bolts" box.

On my boat, I try to keep a "returns bag". If a part/bolt/etc. is not what I need (i.e., the scenario above) I toss the extras in the bag with their receipt, and once I have a few things stocked up from the same store, during my next trip I return them for credit for another bolt for the next thing I am working on.