I've graduated to an "it won't start" thread

[seapadrik]

Well,
I am excited to finally be able to join the discussion of "it wont' start", since this thing has been in a million pieces and I could only dream of that problem.

But here I am and need some help troubleshooting, since everything I do with this engine is pretty much a first for me.

Stats:
-Alternator is on the engine , but not wired up. Was kind of afraid I would wire it incorrectly and mess it up.
- Engine turns over.
- After some work, I have proven I am getting gas to the carb. Athough, it wasn't easy, I ended up cutting out the portion of the hose with the bulb, because I think it was blocked.

Questions:
- How can I prove that I have spark ?
- I have and electronic ignition that was sitting around in the boat during this project, How do I know that works ?
- My carb is new. And that choke lever seems very loose, is that the way the choke always is ? I could flick it with my finger and change it, thought there would be a spring.
- I borrowed my outboard gas can ( the kind with the barb, and the fuel bulb ). Is that going to work in regards to delivering fuel to the fuel pump ? I ve got it on a ladder, higher than the engine. I didnt know how else to set up a temporary gas delivery situation. And yes it is fresh gas, not 2 stroke mix.
- Is it possible to mess up the electric fuel pump ? i have the fuel line from the tank going to "in" and the "out" line going to carb.
- Can I assume that since the engine is turning over that the starter is cool ?

Any tips you have would be great.

Thanks

[Dave Neptune]

Chex

s, the pump should be fine, you didn't say it wasn't pumping. I think I see a O/P switch for the pump. Good
With the ignition on you can remove the coil wire from the dist and hold (or tape it) about a 1/4" from the block (ground) and give the engine a spin. You should see a crisp bluish spark or you could ground the beagle and hold the wire close to it's nose and if it yelps you have spark~.
The choke should have a return spring, some people remove them or just leave them off as the cable will "hold" it where you leave it.
If you have the Indigo it has an LED indicator that flashes (nice for troubleshooting) when the unit triggers the coil to spark, not so with the Pertronix. If you have spark it is working.
Note don't forget the rotor in the cap and be sure the wires are in the correct firing order.

Dave Neptune

[roadnsky]

Dave-
Nice, with the beagle as a test instrument!

seapadrik-
Does the fuel pump "click" when you give it 12v?

[seapadrik]

Of course the beagle wouldnt yelp, he would bay. Thats my friends dog, They have two beagles and when those two start baying its a treat for the neighbors
! Although it sounds better than barking at least.

Yes, regarding the fuel pump it makes the nice clicking sound and even stops when I turn off the ignition so I guess the oil sensor is working properly.

Should I leave off the flame arrestor when troubleshooting this ? Should I be able to see fuel in the carb when I look in there ?

And can i assume full choke would be pulled aft ?

Thanks

[roadnsky]

Should I leave off the flame arrestor when troubleshooting this ? Should I be able to see fuel in the carb when I look in there ?

And can i assume full choke would be pulled aft ?

Thanks

Yes you can leave the flame arrestor off while doing the testing.
If it isn't starting you should see fuel puddling in the bottom of the throat if you're getting fuel to the carb.
(I've never looked in there when it's running though)
The choke cable on my boat does indeed pull AFT.
Here's a shot of what the carb throat should look like when the choke is fully open. You can also see where the fuel would "pool" just above the port for the scavenge tube.

[ILikeRust]

Remember the old saying, "timing is everything."

DAMHIKT.

[ILikeRust]

One way to tell if you're getting spark to the plugs is to pull a wire off one of plugs, pull back the boot to expose the metal connector, and hold it about 1/8" - 3/16" away from a head bolt or other bare metal on the block while cranking. Be very careful not to be touching that connector yourself though - hold the wire/rubber boot. I can tell you getting bit by that spark hurts pretty good.

If no spark there, then as Dave says, you can do the same trick with the wire from the coil to the distributor to isolate wheree the problem is - if you've got a good spark coming from the coil, but not from the distributor, that helps determine where things are awry.

[ILikeRust]

By the way, you don't need to put the exhaust pipe in the water. I hope you're not copying my setup in that regard. I changed it because (1) when the engine crank, it spit water all over the damn place and (2) it turned out to be totally unnecessary and provided no benefit whatsoever.

When I finally got mine running, the pipe was just sticking down towards the ground. It was loud, but not ridiculously or painfully loud.

[seapadrik]

Thanks Bill. No the pipe is not in the water. Its about 18 inches above it. At this point I have no pipe or hose in contact with water, because it wont start.

The bucket is just waiting for me to start this thing !

[seapadrik]

Got it started ! Very cool stuff. Thanks guys for the tips. Here is the low down:

- Spark at coil, yes
- Spark at individual plugs, yes
- Fuel pump makes clicking sound

One thing I noticed is the carb didn't smell gassy enough, wasn't getting in there for some reason. Remember what someone else memntioned and installed a primer bulb just before the fuel pump.

Primed that bulb, and it still didn't start. At that point just for giggles I had my buddy prime the bulb while I turned it over and bingo it started right up.

RPM screw was set way high so it was kind of intense but turned that down quickly. After that initial priming of the bulb, did not have to do it again.

I hope that is not something that will happen at the boat when I do the install. It never had a inline bulb before.

Once I get it tuned a bit better, I will post a video.

Cheers

[lat 64]

Vroooom

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a priming bulb will be not allowed as per USCG regs or whatever. Only for outboards(I think)


I'm sure it was just not getting choked goodly. They just won't start without fuel

Kool sound eh? Always reminded me of an air-cooled Beetle.

'grats,
Russ

[ILikeRust]

Kool sound eh? Always reminded me of an air-cooled Beetle.

I was thinking mine sounded more like an old WWII army jeep.

When I was a kid, my uncle had an old rotted out Willys that he used to plow out his driveway (snow, that is, for you crazy So Cal people who don't know what it means to plow a driveway). It was just a straight pipe, no muffler (and not much of a pipe, at that). The Atomic 4 running a straight pipe reminded me of that sound.

[Baltimore Sailor]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a priming bulb will be not allowed as per USCG regs or whatever. Only for outboards(I think)


I'm sure it was just not getting choked goodly. They just won't start without fuel

Kool sound eh? Always reminded me of an air-cooled Beetle.

'grats,
Russ

If one had the priming bulb outside the engine compartment on the other side of the bulkhead, would it still be disallowed? Or is the fear that it will leak gasoline into the bilge that disqualifies it?

[Bold Rascal]

Primer bulb

Great for trouble-shooting and siphoning gas but, If your fuel system is right, you really should'nt have need for one.

[ILikeRust]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a priming bulb will be not allowed as per USCG regs

Here are the actual USCG regs. I need to do some more research on this myself - I've been scanning the USCG regs and it would appear several parts of my boat are non-compliant (of course, my boat was made before some of these regulations existed). I also need to do a little research into the actual applicability of these regulations - my understanding is that they apply vessel manufacturers. I don't know that it necessarily would be a violation of these standards for the owner of a 40 year-old boat that wasn't subject to these rules when it was made to make modifications to his boat that doesn't meet these requirements.

But of course, why would you not want to meet these at a minimum, when they specifically are designed to provide minimum safety requirements.

§ 182.455 Fuel piping.

(a) Materials and workmanship. The materials and construction of fuel lines, including pipe, tube, and hose, must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.

(1) Fuel lines must be annealed tubing of copper, nickel-copper, or coppernickel having a minimum wall thickness of 0.9 millimeters (0.035 inch) except that:

(i) Diesel fuel piping of other materials, such as seamless steel pipe or tubing, which provide equivalent safety may be used;

(ii) Diesel fuel piping of aluminum is acceptable on aluminum hull vessels provided it is a minimum of Schedule 80 wall thickness; and

(iii) when used,flexible hose must meet the requirements of § 182.720(e) of this part.

§ 182.720 Nonmetallic piping materials.

(a) Rigid nonmetallic materials (plastic) may be used only in non-vital systems and in accordance with paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section.

(b) Flexible nonmetallic materials (hose) may be used in vital and nonvital systems where permitted by paragraph (e) of this section.

(c) Nonmetallic piping must not be used in gasoline or diesel fuel systems. Flexible nonmetallic materials (hose) may be used where permitted by paragraph (e) of this section.

(d) Where rigid nonmetallic material (plastic) is permitted for use in piping systems by this section, the following restrictions apply:

(SNIP - deleted, since it's not allowed for gasoline)


(e) Where flexible nonmetallic hose is permitted for use in piping systems by this section, it must meet SAE J–1942 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600) or be specifically approved by the Commandant. The following restrictions apply:

(1) Flexible nonmetallic hose must be complete with factory-assembled end fittings requiring no further adjustment of the fittings on the hose, or field attachable type fittings may be used. Hose end fittings must comply with SAE J–1475 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600). Field attachable fittings must be installed following the manufacturer’s recommended practice. If special equipment is required, such as crimping machines, it must be of the type and design specified by the manufacturer. If field attachable type fittings are used, each hose assembly must be individually hydrostatically tested to twice the maximum operating pressure of the system;

(2) Flexible nonmetallic hose may be used in non-vital water and pneumatic systems, subject to the limitations of paragraph (d)(1) through (d)(4) of this section. Unreinforced hoses are limited to a maximum service pressure of 349 kPa (50 psig), reinforced hoses are limited to a maximum service pressure of 1,034 kPa (150 psig); and

(3) Flexible nonmetallic hose may be used in lube oil, fuel oil and fluid power systems, subject to the following requirements:

(i) Flexible hose may only be used at a pressure not to exceed the manufacturer’s rating and must have a high resistance to saltwater, petroleum oils, and vibration;

(ii) Flexible hose runs must be visible, easily accessible, protected from mechanical damage, and must not penetrate watertight decks or bulkheads;

(iii) Flexible hose must be fabricated with an inner tube and a cover of synthetic rubber or other suitable material reinforced with wire braid;

(iv) Flexible hose used for alcoholgasoline blend fuels must meet the permeability requirements specified in 33 CFR part 183, subpart J; and

(v) For the purpose of flexibility only, flexible hose installed in lengths of not more than 760 millimeters (30 inches) and subject to pressures of not more than 35 kPa (5 psig), may meet the following requirements:

(A) Suitable compression type connection fittings may be accepted;

(B) Flexible hose designed for use with hose clamps may be installed with two clamps, at both ends of the hose, which:

(1) Do not rely on the spring tension of the clamp for compressive force; and

(2) Are installed beyond the bead or flare or over the serrations of the mating spud, pipe, or hose fitting; and

(C) USCG Type A1, A2, B1, or B2 flexible hose may be accepted in accordance with 33 CFR part 183, subpart J.