Winterizing Questions

[edwardc]

This was a question asked in a profile message, and I thought it should be discussed on the open forum -- Ed

I just bought a 1979 C&C 34 with an Atomic 4 engine. I have the Atomic 4 blue booklet and the C&C Owners's Manual. I decided to winterize my boat myself. I followed the procedure set out in paragraph 2 on page 4 of the Atomic 4 blue booklet. I drained the cylinder block. I was not able to figure out how to drain the water pump or the manifold or the exhaust sytem. Is it important that the water pump, the exhaust system and the manifold be drained. I understood everything in your post about winterizing without starting the engine except the parts dealing with "replace the empty housing" and "clamp off the by pass". What is the empty housing that I should replace and what is the by pass that I should clamp off. Also, how will I know if I have a "water lift muffler". My boat is not close to a water source so I can't run the engine. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Hi Beyent,

First, do yourself a big favor and order the Moyer Marine manual off of this site. Don Moyer has vast amounts of experience and insight on the A4.

If there's no antifreeze in it, you should drain the water pump by removing the back plate (which exposes the impeller). If you don't do this, you risk cracking the pump housing.

I believe there's at least one drain plug on the manifold, but I would simply pump some antifreeze through it using an external pump.

The thermostat housing is a dome-shaped piece on the head, held on by two nuts onto two of the head studs. This is only on late-model engines. On early-model engines, there is a hard metal crossover tube between the head and the manifold instead of the rubber hose from the dome-shaped housing to te manifold. Based on your 1979 date, you probably have a late-model engine.


On the late model engine, the outlet hose from the water pump leads to a "T" fitting on the side of the block. A short hose leads from the other arm of the "T" up to an inlet fitting on the dome-shaped thermostat housing. This is the bypass hose.


A waterlift muffler is a small (~1-2gal) can, usually made of stainless but sometines fiberglass, that receives the exhaust after water has been injected into it. The water/exhaust mixture accumulates until the exhaust pressure pushes a slug of water up and out of the muffler's outlet. which is led up as high as possible and then drains downhill to the stern of the boat. It usually has a drain plug at its base.

[Mo]

Lets talk cold.

Hi,
You know what...there's been so much misinformation and plain bad advice (not on this site and not Don Moyer nor Edward) on winterizing engines, both gas and diesel. It's unbelievable that those writing it can read and write....yet they make false claims, much of it on hear-say. Regardless of experience a manual is what you use to understand what's you are doing. There are things that can be done to facilitate an easy winterization procedure not mentioned in manuals. This is where guys that know and have done it can assist. This is not hard stuff....

There generally is no need to drain the block; the water pump is protected with antifreeze and so is the manifold and exhaust if done correctly and using the proper antifreeze. In the past there was issues with environmental friendly antifreeze and around here, as well as in the states, some suppliers have come up with better solution than what they had provided in the past. No doubt the drop in sales had something to do with it: ie) RV's, Boats, Cottages....all use the same and all had issues with freeze damage.

Have a look at what I do to about 20 boats a year....all fire up in the spring first thing without issues. Every year we see "new" boat owners end up paying through the roof for repairs that were preventable. Reason why is that they hired a mechanic that is in the "make work / sell parts" business, did a mediocre job. The owner may have followed poor advice from the local dock expert...either way, it's a crap shoot unless you know it's right.

Follow the first post #1 and you will not have an issue with the engine...but read through it all because there were a few good ideas in there as well.

Most of our boats are out for the winter now and we have 4 yacht club boats left in the water...mine is one of them. As they were being taken out last week there was this one tanzer 26 just coated with barnacles...I mean 2 inches thick!!!! Asked him what he used for bottom paint and he said "Tremclad"...his neighbor (who he thinks is a great boater) at home told him he used it for years on his bayliner and it worked perfect. The neighbor neglected to tell him he was a day sailor and launched and retrieved the boat on the trailer each time he used it. When I said "holy blank" he said..."well, seemed he knew what he was talking about". All I said is "look at all these boats here...tell me one of these things is not like the others". LMAO

Take you time and look after your boat...then it looks after you.

http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/showthread.php?t=6886&highlight=winterizing

[redlion500]

Location of T-fitting?

Hi to all:
I'm a 65-year old newbie to boat owning, have a '75 Bristol 27 with an A4 in great condition, but I need to install a T-fitting for the antifreeze/flush maintenance. I've read the posts on this issue, and I understand the T-fitting needs to be between the raw water seacock and the inlet side of the water pump.

I'm thinking of installing the T-fitting at the water pump's threaded inlet - I think I have enough room, and I would replace the existing ell with a tee, reinstall the ell at the top of the Tee, then install the ball valve for the antifreeze/flush hose off of the remaining opening. Also, can anyone confirm the FNPT thread size of the pump's inlet opening is likely 3/8"?

Is anyone aware of a problem with this type of install? I've added a photo of the existing condition (the engine compartment is a mess - I've owned the boat for only two months and a big cleanup is planned for the winter).

Finally - this forum is an extraordinary resource for novices like myself, as is the entire Moyer Marine site and product line. I doubt if I would have bought a boat with an Atomic 4 if these resources weren't available. Thanks to all.

[Mo]

Should be fine...don't see an issue with it at all if you have the room and capability. FWIW... Here's what I do AFTER running the antifreeze through the engine. I close the T valve cock and open the sea cock. If a little bit of antifreeze drains back and out it makes no difference...air doesn't freeze and expand to crack your block. However, if you forget to do it in the spring and start the engine as the boat enters the water...well, you could easily damage the impeller.

[ndutton]

I don't winterize but I guess a flush is a flush. Here's my setup. Put a shortened garden hose on the bibb, other end of the hose in a bucket filled with whatever, close the raw water thru-hull valve and open the bibb valve. The bucket contents are drawn into the running engine, close the bibb valve when finished.

All fittings are 3/8" NPT except for my hose bibb which is 1/2" NPT. You'll see the bushing reducer at the bottom of the valve body.

[sastanley]

Welcome redlion.

Yes..the moyer 502 pump you have is 3/8" NPT.

As you can see, there are many options, and Neil showed an excellent one. I have a two-way ball valve (also 1/2" NPT like Neil's) and a McMaster Carr 1/2" NPT to male hose threads, so I can just spin a short hose on very easily, similar to Neil's set up & suck whatever from wherever, usually it is RV antifreeze from a 1 gallon jug.

We were allnewbies at one time. I didn't know jack about my Atomic 4 when I got my boat about 6 years ago..(wow?? that long, really?) this forum is a lifesaver!

[redlion500]

Thanks for your responses

Good morning Mo, Neil and Shawn

I appreciate the feedback and how quickly it was delivered. I've ordered this morning (from MM) the brass fittings for doing this T-fitting in a very similar manner to that shown in Neil's photo. Thanks to all.

Mike

[sastanley]

Mike, feel free to continue to ask questions as you go along. As you are learning quickly, pictures always help alot, and if you talked to Ken in parts, I am sure he gave you some knowledge too.

So, since you are now indoctrinated by posting a pic, we can start scrutinizing and asking questions! It looks to me like that Sheilds hose is way oversized... I can't speak for everyone else, but I think that 5/8" ID hose is about the largest practical size to run with 3/8" NPT (I think the ID of 3/8" NPT is pretty close to the ID of 5/8" hose). It would be interesting to know where that big huge hose goes to before it gets to the pump, and why it is so big. It may be a product of the thru-hull fitting where you are pulling raw water from, etc.etc. but we always like to know all the details.

Also, hopefully beyent, the person that asked Ed the original questions is reading this thread too, and will pop in and we can help him out too..

[redlion500]

Shawn
I've yet to call MM or the parts department, but they're performance has been top-notch to date.

The reason for the big hose may be the fitting size of the the thru-hull - it's a 3/4" NPT nipple coming out of the hull and into a ball valve, then an ell. The hose is labeled "Shieldsflex II Marine Wet Exhaust Water Certified" with a 1 3/16" OD (from catalog tables that equates to a 7/8" ID). It's in good condition and I can live with the space it takes up.

As for questions, I've got plenty. My next issue - I hope to pull this engine this winter (the marine surveyor I used prior to buying said the cutlass bearing is nearing replacement. Accessibility to that work requires engine removal (I'll be following Don Casey's "This Old Boat" for the cutlass bearing replacement). From a picture I took (I've found that cell phones can be great eyes at the end of your arm, as long you don't drop them into the bilge) I'm puzzled at the fitting configuration at the interior hull end of the shaft. It looks like a loose nut in front of a stuffing box arrangement. Does anyone know if that's a problem or is it normal? And I do not know what the blue deposits are.

Mike

[redlion500]

Shawn
I've yet to call MM or the parts department, but they're performance has been top-notch to date.

The reason for the big hose may be the fitting size of the the thru-hull - it's a 3/4" NPT nipple coming out of the hull and into a ball valve, then an ell. The hose is labeled "Shieldsflex II Marine Wet Exhaust Water Certified" with a 1 3/16" OD (from catalog tables that equates to a 7/8" ID). It's in good condition and I can live with the space it takes up.

As for questions, I've got plenty. My next issue - I hope to pull this engine this winter (the marine surveyor I used prior to buying said the cutlass bearing is nearing replacement. Accessibility to that work requires engine removal (I'll be following Don Casey's "This Old Boat" for the cutlass bearing replacement). From a picture I took (I've found that cell phones can be great eyes at the end of your arm, as long you don't drop them into the bilge) I'm puzzled at the fitting configuration at the interior hull end of the shaft. It looks like a loose nut in front of a stuffing box arrangement. Does anyone know if that's a problem or is it normal? And I do not know what the blue deposits are.

Mike

[roadnsky]

Here's my set-up...

The hose on the LEFT is the incoming line from the thru-hull.
The hose on the RIGHT is capped and stored ABOVE the waterline and long enough to reach the "bucket" for vinegar, acid, antifreeze, etc.
The hose on the TOP goes TO the pump.

The 2nd pic is a mock-up of the bucket "intake".

Hopefully, it makes sense.

[JOHN COOKSON]

First I have a question: How did the surveyor determine that the cutless bearing is near the end of its life? Dive under the boat?

The flat nut you're refering to is a lock nut. It should be firmly up against the packing nut to hold it in place.
The blue is the copper part of the bronze and is normal. Soak the whole assembly in PB blaster or your favorite goop for a week or more to loosen the corrosion.
Then try adjusting the packing nut for a satisfactory drip rate (I like 3-4 drops per minute) when the shaft is turning.
If you can achieve a drip rate you are happy with and have the packing gland run at the temp of the surrounding water you will not have to repack.

TRUE GRIT

[sastanley]

Mike, makes sense on the oversized intake hose..I was just curious, and it doesn't hurt to have it too big.

There is a thing I learned of recently called a "selfie stick". Primarily, it is used to extend a person's reach for taking a group selfie photo, and widen the field of view more than they could by extending their arm. Some of them are operated via Bluetooth, so you have the shutter control at the other end of the stick where your hand is, while the cheaper ones I think you just set the phone on time delay and gather your peeps for a photo op.

I think one of these would also be great for extending the reach of your phone, while securely clamped to the end of the stick in tight quarters on the boat.

http://amzn.com/B00NOLGF8I

[Whippet]

Stuck drain plug

Was going to start another thread, but this one seems close to topic.

I managed to strip the threads on the wing nut part of the drain plug (one by starter). Hope i dont get demoted to tenderfoot. Facts and questions:

1) Engine already winterized e.g. two gallons of -100c pumped through until ample came out the exhaust
2) Prior, i did drain water out other plug back by distributor -- but couldnt open this one to drain. Sounds like from Mo advice, not to worry, no big deal. No need to drain block before antifreeze.
3) I assume since block is full and this doesnt leak, that i can leave this troublesome bugger in there.
4) I attempted to go the route of removing. Rounded the corners with a square wrench. Another demotion to tenderfoot. Applied PB and tried to remove w vice grips, but wont come loose.

Any advice how to remove, or do I just let it go?

[JOHN COOKSON]

Steve
More PB blaster and tap it a bit with a hammer. Do it for a couple of weeks.
If you have room use a pipe wrench.
You can always drill the sucker out in the spring when it's time to drain the antifreeze.

TRUE GRIT