Engine won't start and I'm at my wits-end

[ChicagoNewport27]

Note that ChicagoNewport27's postings are from last year and he hasn't posted since mid-July 2007.

Hello all! Thanks for replying to this thread. I owe you all an update!

Shortly after my last response to this thread, I had a string of health problems, culminating in a surgery. As a result of health and the associated financial difficulties, last summer my boat sat idle in the boat yard, out of the water.

HOWEVER, I'm determined she will sail this summer!

I spent the entire weekend on the boat last weekend. My put-in date is 5/15, so I don't have much time to get this engine running.

So far, I've commenced troubleshooting this non-starting A4 where I left off. I replaced all sparkplugs and their wires, the coil, the batteries, installed an ignitor electonic ignition system, and a new fuel pump.

I do have a Moyer carb rebuild kit handy if it seems she's not getting fuel for some reason (I'm not that far along yet... no spark to the ignition system beyond the starter, and the fuel pump isn't even getting current yet).

Tried to turn her over yesterday, and...
The starter engages (with vigor! yay!), but the engine does not fire up.



Upon further examination, it seems as though no power is getting to my coil or distributor, thus no spark. Also, the fuel pump does not turn on when I turn the key over (although other various things work, like the blower, lights, bilge pumps, etc).

Tonight, after work, I'm going to go trace the wires from the battery up to the coil and see if anything is awry. Maybe a blown fuse or something?

To make matters worse, yesterday I did notice that all the wire colors are wrong, as though the previous owner(s) used whatever wire was at hand to cobble the thing together. For example, the wire grounding the electrics to one of the engine bolts is Red, not black as it should be! I sincerely hope they didn't wire the entire shootin match backwards, or I may have inadvertently wired up my batteries backwards and fried some alternator diodes (or worse).

Wish me luck. I'll report back tomorrow with my findings.

[CalebD]

Welcome back.

Sorry to hear about your medical problems. Glad to hear that you are still determined to get your A4 ticking.
Good gas + spark + air = it should turn over, right?
Not to add to your litany of woes but after all this time any fuel you have in the tank MAY be suspect.
Exhaust back pressure will make the engine run poorly but should not stop it from turning over and firing up.

I cleaned and serviced our carb over the winter and I have to say that it was not as difficult a job as I had thought it might be.

I wish you well in your efforts and look forward to hearing your progress.

[ChicagoNewport27]

Since my last update, last night was the first opportunity I've had to tinker with my A4. I worked from about 4pm until 10:30pm (via flashlight).

I watched Don Moyers video on the ignition system before I went. I bought it a while ago, just never had the chance to watch it. WHAT AN EYE-OPENER!

I got to the boat, determined to try Don's troubleshooting techniques using a jumper wire to the coil.

But first, I needed to know what all these incorrectly-colored wires were doing. I traced all wires from the primary ignition back to the battery bank. I was dismayed to find that some well-meaning PO grounded the engine using a 2 guage red battery cable. It was obviously meant to serve as ground, as it was secured to an engine bolt where other components were being grounded. Following it toward the battery bank, I found that it ended at the OFF-1-ALL-2 battery selector switch, at one of the terminals meant to be for the incoming positive lead! Oy vey.

To make a long story short, I ran correctly-guaged black wire from the engine ground back to the battery bank. Then I rewired the battery selector switch.

Now, back to the engine.

I connected the jumper from the starter to the + side of the coil. I then removed the center lead from the coil to the distributor, and held it near the block so I could watch for sparking. Turned the key.

I see spark! Albeit a very weak spark.

I replaced the center lead from the coil to the distributor, opened the fuel petc0ck, and turned the key again. Again, the starter engages with vigor, but no ignition.

For some reason, at this point, I notice a black wire leading from the oil sender thingy (on the lower right side of the engine, in the front, as you're facing it) wasn't connected to anything. A close examination of this wire, I realize the black part of the wire is actually connected (with a wire nut *slaps forehead*) to a brownish-red wire (either a red wire browned with age, heat, or dirt, or it was originally a brown wire). Interesting. The other wire on this sender goes over to the fuel pump. Ah-ha, maybe thats why no fuel is getting to the carb?

I connect this to the positive lead of the coil, and try her again.

She didn't start, but, over the din of the starter engaging, I could hear something different was happening. Now, in addition to the starter engaging, I heard some "putt-putt-sputter-putt* noises coming from the back of the boat. Huh? I turned off the key and went to look over the transom. Lo and behold, a 3-foot long stripe of rusty water was on the ground below the exhaust thru-hull. Yay! Apparently, a cylinder or two had fired enough to make exhaust, which in turn exhausted water from the water lift muffler?

I'm close, I can feel it. Why is it not turning over?

Puzzled, I sit down [with a bag of pistachios] and examine the wiring diagrams again. Remembering Don Moyers ignition system DVD, I think that maybe at this point I was confronting a timing problem.

Putting the engine back at TDC, I glance at the distributor cap and realize that the wires from the plugs to the distributor are wired in the wrong order! Arrgh!

Now, I had monkeyed with the distributor a few days before when I added the new Ignitor electric ignition. I didn't change any of the wires around, I just replaced the old points breaker plate with the new breaker plate, and put the cap back on. I had never taken the time to suspect that the plugs were wired in the wrong order.

Repeating to myself 1-2-4-3, clockwise from the side of the cap furthest from the engine, I wired the plugs in the correct sequence.

Now, I'm suspecting that EVERYTHING is done incorrectly, so I am questioning all assumptions. The plugs were wired wrong, so what else is wrong?

I opened the cap and looked at the position of the rotor. It was facing toward the engine. Huh? I double checked that I had the engine at TDC for cylinder 1, and looked again. Yep, at TDC the rotor was pointing toward the block. Darn! Is NOTHING correct with this beast?

At this point, I actually went down to my car, and fired up the Moyer ignition system DVD in my laptop just to be sure that the rotor was supposed to point away from the block at TDC. Yep, Don confirmed this.

I removed the distributor hold-down bracket. Then I lifted the distributor assembly out, rotated the shaft so the rotor was pointing away from he block (the engine is still at TDC at this point), and dropped it back in. The little angled teeth engaged a bit and pulled it away from where I wanted it, but after a couple times, I was able to leave the rotor pointing directly away from the block.

Having re-timed everything, I tightened the hold-down bracket back down, replaced the cap, double-checked that my plug wires were still secure and tight, and reconnected my jumper wire.

When I turned the battery selector to on again, the positive lead from the coil to the Ignitor electric ignition stared glowing RED HOT and smoke started coming out of the distributor cap. OH NO! Somehow, I shorted out my new Ignitor electric ignition. The positive lead is now discolored a white-ish pink color.

Sure enough, when I check for spark now, no spark.

:/

At that point, it was just after 10pm, and I was too exhausted (mentally) to fiddle with it anymore.

Looks like I made progress, though, right?

I timed the engine, wired the plugs correctly, and even got the engine to sputter enough to throw water out the exhaust.

Tonight, when I go back to the boat, it looks like I'll be putting the old points breaker plate back on, since I fried my ignitor (doh!), and I'll continue from there.

[sastanley]

Oh boy...sorry you fried your ignitor!

It does sound like you are making progress.

Perhaps before you switch on the key again, we should help diagnose exactly what you have connected to the (+) & (-) on your coil. I also found a lot of odd wiring in my boat from the PO, and have done a bit of double-checking myself.

I would also recommend, since you are putting the points back in to clean them beforehand. Be careful here, I separated mine too far and broke the spring. I ended up getting a Pertronix ignitor myself, although I have since found about 3 sets of old points floating about in various storage areas of the boat that probably would have worked just fine. A small piece of sandpaper (I find the black wet/dry works better) or even an old fashioned emory board from the wife works well...except for those huge new thick ones, they could break the spring.

Keep us informed!

[roadnsky]

Man, do we feel your pain!
BUT it does sound like you're in the ballpark now.
I totally agree with sastanley that you should check the wiring to that coil.
Can you take some pics?

"For some reason, at this point, I notice a black wire leading from the oil sender thingy..."
Did this wire have a FUSE in it? If so, is it blown?

Keep banging away, you're close!

[sastanley]

Good thinking...pictures would help immensely. Then we can see what's going on.

[Baltimore Sailor]

I have doubts about this:

For some reason, at this point, I notice a black wire leading from the oil sender thingy (on the lower right side of the engine, in the front, as you're facing it) wasn't connected to anything. A close examination of this wire, I realize the black part of the wire is actually connected (with a wire nut *slaps forehead*) to a brownish-red wire (either a red wire browned with age, heat, or dirt, or it was originally a brown wire). Interesting. The other wire on this sender goes over to the fuel pump. Ah-ha, maybe thats why no fuel is getting to the carb?

I connect this to the positive lead of the coil, and try her again.

The "brownish-red wire" from the "oil sender thingy" is the sensor lead from the oil pressure sender to the oil pressure gauge. I'm pretty sure that hooking that up to the + terminal on the coil was not a good thing to do.

My sympathies to you for having to deal with a PO's wiring hell. I just went through my own this spring, but now have everything done in what I like to call "the right way."

Keep at it, good luck, and check those connections to the positive terminal on the coil!

[msauntry]

Before frying more electrical parts, try to get your wiring in order. There are plenty of posts in here as to what goes to what and when. I've posted a few if you want to search my posts. Mine was wired incorrectly when I got the boat. I put in new wires, but still following the old paths. I finally figured out my errors (and the PO's) and got it right. Don't worry yet about charging and house systems. Your ignition circuit and how it branches out to the sensors and coil, etc. is pretty straight forward. Just focus on that.

A side note, most electric fuel pumps run off the oil pressure sensor. This is to prevent fuel pumping when the engine isn't running. Many boats have bypassed this so that the fuel pumps runs whenever the ignition is on. It makes a faint clicking noise when its running, but you shouldn't hear it until the engine starts.

Can you get some photos (sized appropriately for web) of your wiring? The folks here can probably spot your problem in a minute. Sounds like you've learned a lot so far, though! Keep at it!

[P30_889]

Possible issue with wires from Oil pressure sender.

(Content warning: Post is coming from someone who can't get his own A4 running - read at your own risk!)

You mentioned that the oil pressure sender has two wires connected to it. Unless your sender is 'dual ported' or has two terminals, you may have a problem attaching two devices to a single sender. I wanted to put a temp and oil pressure alarm on my engine and I was told that I had to add two new senders to the engine and not just add wires to existing senders.

The Moyer rebuild engines with the electric fuel pump have a pressure sender inline but they have their own dedicated sender that accesses a port on the engine above the oil pressure adjuster (if I am remembering this correctly).

I would confirm that your oil pressure sender is compatible with supporting both the gauge and the 'switch' if it is wired to the fuel pump. (you can jumper over the oil pressure sender for the fuel pump if you want to test it)

Best of luck. I hope one of us gets their engine running in time to enjoy the spring/summer sailing season!

[gary gerber]

My A4 won't start either

Guess I will join the parade of solution seekers. My 1970 Morgan 33 is in her slip, launched by the marina before I could check the engine out. I have always test run my engine prior to launching.

I have narrowed the problem to not getting fuel into the carb which I purchased from Moyer a few years back ( It is clean as a whistle ). So far I ran a compression check( reading of 95 on all four cylinders ), Getting good spark to all the plugs, Removed the flame arrestor to check for air flow into the carb (yes ), Removed the mechanical fuel pump and checked for proper action plus cleaned passages and replaced the fuel bowl screen.

I was not able to refill the fuel bowl when cranking the engine ( thru hull closed ) I suspect a cloged Racor Fuel filter ! Does that make sense?

Am I missing something obvious?

[P30_889]

A4 fuel issues

You may wish to consider a 'priming' bulb in your fuel line to help make sure there is adequate fuel flow before startup. I put one in and it REALLY made it easier to know that I was getting fuel to the carb when I first tried to start the engine. The Racor may indeed be bad, however, it helps to know that fuel is flowing.

David

[Mark S]

Petcock? I'm not being a wiseguy. When our A4 suddenly quit I realized I had failed to open the fuel line. My friend's diesel frequently fails to start due to fuel not getting past a clogged Racor.

Mark

[gary gerber]

The "priming" bulb is an interesting idea. The petcock is open. I plan on changing the Racor on my next starting attempt. I use "Sta-Bil" in the full fuel tank for winter storage but I noticed that Moyer had mentioned "growth blockage" occuring if water is anywhere in the system. Is the new fuel blend a possible cause? There seems to be a high number of "starting problem" forum threads. I have been sailing this same boat for 39 years and the old A4 has been, with routine maintenance, super reliable.

Again, I installed a new Moyer carb only three years ago so I don't suspect the carb.

[ghaegele]

Gary, do change the Racor. The ethanol gas acts as a much better solvent than regular gas and delaminates ages of built up shelac like coatings in old fuel tanks, and releases little bits of rust and scale into the tank. A few years ago after a series of clogged filters and blown electric fuel pump fuses we had to pull our tank (a beautiful monel tank) and completely flush it. We got pints of crud out. Also check to see if you have an inline filter somewhere.

[sastanley]

Gary, I installed a priming bulb in my system this winter too. It is just in front of the Racor (also new). I am not sure how long it would take the little mechanical pump to pull fuel thru the Racor if I didn't have the priming bulb. It made my start-up in the travel lift slip MUCH easier, despite having to replace the fuel tank 3 days prior to launch..a dozen squeezes and the Racor was full and the A-4 fired right up!

Does your Racor have a drain in the bottom of the bowl?