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  #26   IP: 72.194.220.204
Old 06-12-2018, 12:23 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosh View Post
Basically, at this point the new electric fuel pump is not receiving power from the ignition coil. It will operate when connected directly to the battery. I bypassed the 'new' wiring, fuse, and OPSS with a test lead, connecting the pump directly to the positive of the ignition coil, does not work.
il?
If you don't have a VOM (volt ohm meter) or the equivalent you will need to buy or acquire one.
Step 1: Can you read "12 volts" at coil + when the ignition switch\key is in the on position?
Step 2: With the wire to the OPSS\fuel pump connected to coil + can you read 12 volts at the distal (OPSS) end when the switch\key is on?
Remember: The OPSS will not pass electricity to the fuel pump until the engine starts and the oil pressure is up.

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Old 06-12-2018, 01:01 PM
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This is very puzzling.

You have a spark, so we know you have power to the coil, yet the pump isn't working with the OPSS bypassed, but DOES work connected straight to the battery.

I'd definitely do as John suggests and check voltage at the coil. If you have 12ish volts at the coil, you should have enough oomph to run the pump (unless internal wire corrosion/wire size has created a significant voltage drop?)

Hopefully the smart kids will have some more ideas. I'm very curious what your coil voltage is.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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If its a Facet fuel pump, another possibility is the (infamous) "stuck ball" problem. The Facet has an internal ball and spring check valve. For some as-yet unknown reason, this ball can become partially or fully "stuck" to its seat when left unused for a longish time.

In the partially stuck position, a small amount of fuel gets by, enough to start and run at idle for quite a while, but quickly dies at higher throttle. In the fully stuck position, it won't even start once the float bowl runs dry.

This spring, I had this happen again at spring commissioning. It's the third time, on two separate Facet pumps, over the course of 8 years.

Fortunately, the diagnostic and short-term fix is quite simple. The bottom of the pump is a bayonet-style twist-off, with a 15/16" nut-shaped boss. Once removed (have a container ready to catch the gas), the bottom of the check valve ball is accessible. Simply press on it gently with a fingertip. It should move up smoothly. If its stuck, a little more force will cause it to break free with a perceptible "click" and then operate smoothly.

Unfortunately, my experience has been that once it starts to stick, it will do so again, the only long-term fix being a new pump.
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  #29   IP: 72.194.220.204
Old 06-12-2018, 03:34 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I'd definitely do as John suggests and check voltage at the coil. If you have 12ish volts at the coil, you should have enough oomph to run the pump (unless internal wire corrosion/wire size has created a significant voltage drop?)
coil voltage is.
My best guess at the moment is that the fuse is blown or not making contact inside the holder. I can only guess because I'm sitting in front of computer, not on the boat and not doing any diagnostics myself..........


TRUE GRIT
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:10 PM
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I will measure coil voltage. I believe we did that this past weekend, but i can't say 100% for sure what it was. (i was up in the cockpit with the key)

To measure the voltage at the coil, positive lead on the tester on the coil +, and negative tester lead grounded to the block, or to the negative on the coil?

John, completely bypassing the fuse and 'new' wiring, still doesn't work. The fuse looks ok anyway, and i had initially made sure it was seated and all connections to the new Facet were good...new connectors, good crimp, etc.

I hope to get out to the boat this afternoon to test it out.
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  #31   IP: 174.192.26.200
Old 06-14-2018, 04:24 PM
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Zero volts at the coil. Noooooooo...
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosh View Post
Zero volts at the coil. Noooooooo...
That explains a lot.

This is good in a way. Now you know where to look to solve the problem!
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  #33   IP: 72.194.220.204
Old 06-14-2018, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosh View Post
Zero volts at the coil. Noooooooo...
Next you will need to check the voltage at the terminal on the key\switch that supplies electricity to the coil when it is in the on position. Probably a purple wire.
While taking the reading tap on the key\switch with a screwdriver handle to see if there is there is an intermediate connection inside it.
This way you will know it the problem is with the key\switch or the wiring.
We're getting closer.

TRUE GRIT
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  #34   IP: 174.192.10.43
Old 07-07-2018, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Next you will need to check the voltage at the terminal on the key\switch that supplies electricity to the coil when it is in the on position. Probably a purple wire.
While taking the reading tap on the key\switch with a screwdriver handle to see if there is there is an intermediate connection inside it.
This way you will know it the problem is with the key\switch or the wiring.
We're getting closer.

TRUE GRIT
Back into it. Finallly have time to push through, hopefully.

I connected up a new switch. Tested across from batt to both the start post and ignition post: 12v. Ran test wire from ignition post to positive on coil. No voltage at coil. Negative from coil goes to the distributor....do I have a ground issue on there?

Was feeling like I was getting somewhere. Switch is ok, and I’ll say wiring from switch to coil should be ok.
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  #35   IP: 72.194.219.196
Old 07-08-2018, 03:43 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Your engine will not start or run until you can read "12" volts at coil + when the key is the run position.
Coil - is not a ground. The grounding takes place inside the distributor when the points (or EI) are in the closed position - this allows electricity to flow through the primary windings of the coil. When electricity stops flowing through the primary coil windings (points open) the secondary winding spits out a mighty bolt of high voltage electricity which fires the spark plug.

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  #36   IP: 174.64.53.158
Old 07-08-2018, 09:54 AM
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Is it possible that when you replaced the cap last year that the little grounding wire to the electronic ignition that slinks out of a little notch under that cap got misdirected away from the notch and minced? Or that the cap you used doesn’t have the notch at all?

I haven’t replaced my cap in a while but I forget if that notch is pre-cut on new caps, or if I had to carve it out myself with a Dremel or rigging knife.

The integrity of that wire is critical to the functioning of the EI. There might even be two of those wires, I forget.

Last edited by tenders; 07-08-2018 at 09:57 AM.
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  #37   IP: 216.80.24.55
Old 07-08-2018, 01:47 PM
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Moyer does sell caps with the notch. There are two wires coming out and a little rubber sleeve that should line up with the notch. Just took mine apart yesterday to oil the advance mechanism
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  #38   IP: 104.254.68.254
Old 07-08-2018, 02:39 PM
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tenders - i don't think i have electronic ignition?

this is the bottom of the distributor...points and condenser.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/jye1bR6RhxsxMsXP8

I probably should have ordered new guts for this...
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  #39   IP: 104.254.68.254
Old 07-08-2018, 02:47 PM
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so, I can test the coil if i run a test lead from the - of the coil to the block. That will isolate the coil, or the workings inside the distributor.


That's the complete circuit... battery to keyswitch --> coil + ---> coil - ---> points ----> ground?
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  #40   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 07-08-2018, 03:10 PM
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The coil isn't so simple. The high voltage lead will throw a spark to the block, but the return path to the coil is through the points and condenser. I haven't tried it, but you may be able to get it to throw a spark to the negative terminal on the coil.
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosh View Post
tenders - i don't think i have electronic ignition?

this is the bottom of the distributor...points and condenser.
I probably should have ordered new guts for this...
(Picture posted for you)
You should certainly replace the points and condenser and set the gap.
I'd brighten up that rotor tip as well.

IF this were my vessel, I'd consider replacing the whole dizzy...
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  #42   IP: 104.254.68.254
Old 07-08-2018, 08:11 PM
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what we did, or verified, today:

cleaned up the points and the wire ends, putting new connectors on.

put new connectors on the leads, positive and negative, going to the ignition coil

tested spark: strong spark

fuel pump does not pull power from the coil positive terminal (where Moyer instructions say to connect)

Fuel pump DOES run if direct to battery.

Motor does crank over (so battery power is getting to the switch, and to the solenoid) And spark is strong.

Tested voltage across coil: zero. Tested from positive on coil to engine ground: zero.

Swapped the old coil back in.

Connected a constant power directly to the coil positive (alligator clip lead from the power at starter the coil), the fuel pump operates and the motor fires up and runs! Runs well!

While it was running, tested voltage across ignition coil + to - : fluctuating 1 to 2 volts or so.

Let it run for a while....then turned it off by pulling that alligator clipped lead.

Tried to start it again and will not start.

So that's where I'm at.

I am planning on replacing the points and condenser. Or can i just upgrade to electronic by using the Petronix "ignitor" for $112?
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  #43   IP: 72.69.36.126
Old 07-09-2018, 09:01 AM
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Wow. I think the electronic ignition is a huge upgrade, but I wouldn't be putting new electronic parts into this setup that might get shorted out until you figure out what is the problem with the existing configuration.

You got her running by directly connecting the coil + to the battery +, so there is nothing significantly wrong with ANY of the components. Seems to me this is a wiring or connection problem, no?
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosh View Post
Tested from positive on coil to engine ground: zero. . . . .Connected a constant power directly to the coil positive (alligator clip lead from the power at starter the coil), the fuel pump operates and the motor fires up and runs! Runs well!
In agreement with Tenders previous post, this is clear indication of an ignition circuit wiring problem. All the parts in place (points, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, coil) are functioning properly so replacing them will not address the no start/run problem.

Quote:
fuel pump does not pull power from the coil positive terminal (where Moyer instructions say to connect)
Yes it does. It's just that you have no power to coil +.

Quote:
Tested voltage across coil: zero. . . . . While it was running, tested voltage across ignition coil + to - : fluctuating 1 to 2 volts or so.
This test, between the two small coil posts, provides zero useful information and only tends to confuse the troubleshooting. The (-) post on the coil is not a ground. I'd much rather the convention was to identify it as a "D" terminal (for Distributor) but it's unfortunately not.

Chase down the ignition wire from the keyswitch to the coil, every inch of it by testing for voltage to a solid ground with the key on (coil disconnected for testing please). The first test is on the "I" terminal of the keyswitch.
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-09-2018 at 09:59 AM.
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  #45   IP: 12.40.28.99
Old 07-09-2018, 07:53 PM
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Neil’s last sentence EXACTLY. You are going to find some dumb little thing that is broken, or corroded, or loose, or misconnected (ie, coil wire connected to “start” terminal on keyswitch instead of “run” terminal) that has been the source of all this angst.

What led you to decide to hotwire the coil? That was a good idea.
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