Another Catalina 30/A4 Question

[Guest]

This past weekend, motoring out of a local harbor at idle, my A4 stalled and wouldn't restart. Tried several more times that day, but couldn't get the motor to start. To be specific, it turns over normally, but won't start.

This is my first year with the boat (1980 Catalina 30), first year with any sailboat with an inboard engine, and the engine has started right up and run smoothly all season. I have had an occasional whine, usually right after startup, that sounded like a belt slipping, but went away after warming up. Didn't seem to be a problem.

Secondly, I did not keep the raw water intake closed during extended cranking (had no idea I was supposed to). I could hear water coming out the stern while cranking, like it does when the motor is running. But the motor would not start.

Last week, I added Startron for gasoline engines (fuel treatment). Ran well for three hours under power on Saturday. Thinking maybe the Startron caused some gunk or deposits in the tank of fuel line to break loose and block something.

The other thing is that, normally, the gauges in the cockpit near the shift and throttle levers (fuel level, amps, oil pressure, and temp) all click on when I turn the key to the first notch. Now they do not. They all click on when I go one more notch to engage the starter, but go back off when I stop that.

So, I don't know if I have some electrical issue that's keeping it from starting, or a fuel issue, or something else. And now I'm concerned about whether I have water in my engine.

I am not mechanical and don't have any idea what to do now. I've read a few of these strings and am concerned that I may have made my problem worse by cranking with the raw water intake open. I don't understand a lot of the technical aspects of what I am reading: how a raw-water cooling system works, where the muffler is or how it works, how water can back up into the engine, where the water goes, what's an anti-siphon valve, etc.

Is there anything I can do myself, or should I be looking for a mechanic? I don't want to lose the rest of my summer of sailing because my motor won't start and I definitely don't want to make more trouble for my motor.

I would appreciate any suggestions you have, or a reference to a mechanic if that's what I need. Thank you.

Mark
Sandusky, Ohio

[Dave Neptune]

no start

Mark, welcome to the forum.

The noise or squealing is probably just a loose alternator belt, it can easily be tightened.

When you say your guages are off I am assuming you ment with the key in the run position. Do they come on when cranking? Could be as simple as a new key switch or that the wire came loose at the key or the coil.

Does it try to start and just goes dead when you release the key?

During long cranking periods the motor still pumps water through the system, the problem is that there isn't enough flow in the exhaust to force the water out unless it is running. So the water backs up in the exhaust and can back fill the engine through an open exhaust valve. Check for water on the plugs and give it a quick spin when the plugs are out. If you see water or moisture coming out get some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes. DO ALL OF THIS WITYH THE WATER INTAKE VALVE CLOSED!!!! Also check the oil to see if it has "gone up" or is milky, important!

There are many wiring problems (to many connections that are hidden in various places) with the Catalina 30's and many here on this site are well associated with them.

Dave Neptune

[MarkG]

Yes, the gauges normally come on when the key is in the on position. Now they do not. They come on while cranking and go off when I stop cranking.

The engine cranks just fine and sounds like it wants to start, but when I stop cranking, it stops.

I've read about the water issue (the only reason I knew to mention it), so I closed my raw water intake and checked my oil at the dipstick. The oil looks medium brown but clear and the level hasn't changed from when I last checked it before the problem arose. It did not look milky.

I have not yet checked the spark plugs or the insides of the combustion chambers, but will try that next.

As for the loose wires, I will take a look, but really have no idea what I'm looking at. I have the misfortune of not being mechanical and growing up with cars that you can't really work on at home. Is there a way to check the ignition switch? Does it make sense that it would be dead in the on position, but still crank the engine in the start position?

Thanks, again!

[sastanley]

Mark,

As Neil mentioned in the yahoo group, if your oil level is good, clear and not milky, you may have dodged a bullet there. My usual scenario is if I can't get the engine to start after 10 seconds or so, I close the thru-hull & then swiftly go down and open it again once it is running.

So, based on your observations, I think the problem is you are losing 12v in teh "run" position. THat could be a loose wire, bad switch, or bad connection. If you have power to the gauges at "Start" but not at "run", the 12v goes to the gauges thru the start circuit, but then there is nothing when the key flips back to 'run'. Check for loose wires first as Dave mentioned...The runs are long on C-30's. - There is a connection near the motor, and I have a second one under the quarterberth/behind the galley drawers. They look like big doofy trailer light plugs & are prone to corrosion and failure. Do a quick check on these first and make sure they're good, clean them, spray them,etc.. Check the connections at the coil & at the switch. Then we'll change the suspect over to the switch itself.

Welcome!

[Baltimore Sailor]

When the engine stalled the first time, did it stumble to a stop or die quickly, as though you'd turned off the key?

If it was the quick death, then you have another clue pointing toward an electrical issue.

I don't want to hijack the thread here, but while we're on the subject of gauges, I have a bit of an oddity with one of mine. When I shut off the key all the gauges except the temp gauge drop back to their marks. The temp gauge will stay forever right where it was until I put the key back into the "run" position, when it will drop back to its mark. Stays put even if I turn the main batter switch to "off."

Any ideas about that behavior? Just a fluky gauge, or something more sinister?

[Dave Neptune]

Hot wire the beastie!

Mark, you are far enough along to go to the next level!! Get a "pig tail" wire, thats a wire with a clip at both ends. Make sure the wire is long enough to go from the positive side of the battery to the coil. Hook the wire to the + positive side of the battery and the other to the + side of the coil, they're marked. Now try to start the engine again. If it runs you will know it is the switch or a loose connection. VERY IMPORTANT TO DISCONNECT THE "JUMPER PIG TAIL" when done so you don't drain the battery of fry something in the ignition.

Dave Neptune

[Dave Neptune]

Stuck guage?

Baltimore, I have seen guages do the same thing I just never bothered to check it out, maybe the indicator needle just stays put when the current is removed and won't move unless it has input current. Different type of sensor I guess. Hanley may know what is what with the sensors in the guages that reed the current.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

When the engine stalled the first time, did it stumble to a stop or die quickly, as though you'd turned off the key?

If it was the quick death, then you have another clue pointing toward an electrical issue.

I don't want to hijack the thread here, but while we're on the subject of gauges, I have a bit of an oddity with one of mine. When I shut off the key all the gauges except the temp gauge drop back to their marks. The temp gauge will stay forever right where it was until I put the key back into the "run" position, when it will drop back to its mark. Stays put even if I turn the main batter switch to "off."

Any ideas about that behavior? Just a fluky gauge, or something more sinister?

BS, My tach does that sometimes as well, similar to Dave's comments. The engine temp is still up when the key is turned off, so it doesn't zero when it loses current. When you turn the key back on it resets to zero (or the current temp of the sender if a recent shutdown)

[roadnsky]

Mark-
Welcome to the crew.
Dave gives good instruction to try a quick hot wire.
Follow his advice and let us know.

I'm attaching a couple of PDF's for you to look over.
The first is a basic wiring scheme to help you get a feel for the system.
The other is a document for some other procedures you can try as a step-by-step to try and narrow your non-start issue down.

BUT, keep reporting back here. The gang "feeds" on info and feedback...

[Jesse Delanoy]

Mark,

Couple of thoughts, both of which I have experienced.

How is your oil pressure at idle? Mine is low, especially after an extended run when the oil is hot and thin, on occasion low enough to cause the oil pressure safety switch to kill the engine. I figured out I can overcome this, when it occurs once or twice a season, by running a jumper wire from the battery plus terminal to the fuel pump side of the oil pressure safety switch. This gets the fuel pump to start ticking over, pumping gas into the carb, and after several seconds I can turn over the engine and it starts right up.

Also, I once had the long wire from the alternator up to the ignition switch in the cockpit break down. It caused intermittent problems that were hard to pin down, but once I figured it out, I replaced the wire with new, marine grade wire, and haven't had the problem since.

Jesse Delanoy
1977 Catalina 30
Off The Grid
Baltimore/Pasadena MD