Rudder hell

[sastanley]

Nick,

I'll throw in my $0.02. We've done a lot of conjecturing (is that the right word?) on this thread...I think pictures will help a lot. Based on your posts, not sure if this is a repair that can be done during a tide cycle, standing in the mud.

I'd haul the boat. Take some pictures..if it is worth repairing, we'll get you going in the right direction. If it is not, pull the A4 and keep it. - If nothing else, you get it running on a bench and sell it for what you have in the boat ($700 + a haul fee)

Then you can chain saw the boat.. GRP will make a great bonfire in the marina's boat burning pile.

There are other cheap boats around..actually, they're are a dime a dozen these days.

[ILikeRust]

I like Rust is rebuilding his A4. He is not doing it to save money.

Actually... there is a reason I didn't simply buy a Moyer rebuilt A4. You're looking at about $5,000 for one. So far, I've got about $2,000, maybe $2,500 in my rebuild.

I do believe in saving and restoring old machinery, old cars, old boats, old tools, etc. It's my hobby. I own a table saw that was manufactured in about 1880. I own a 36" bandsaw manufactured in about 1910. They are in mothballs right now, waiting for me to get around to restoring them. I have fully restored a Walker-Turner 16" bandsaw made in the late 1930s, and it's my regular user. I also restored, used, and then ultimately sold a Walker-Turner lathe from the same era. I've got lots and lots of antique hand tools, many of which are over 100 years old, that I have cleaned up, restored, sharpened, and keep in my shop as daily users.

By the same token, when we're talking about something substantial, such as a car, house or boat, there is a certain degree of pragmatism that should enter into the calculation. Romance and nostalgia go only so far before you end up in the territory known as "folly."

I haven't followed the story of Nicholas's boat that closely, so I don't have an opinion one way or the other on his particular boat. But often, particularly when you're dealing with an older sailboat, you do have to consider whether it is worth the time, money and effort it would require to restore the boat to usability, and compare that to the value or worth of the boat when you're finished, and whether that's really what you want to do.

I've seen people buy big old wooden boats, thinking they'll fix them up and then have a beautiful classic to cruise around in, only to discover, after dumping tens of thousands of dollars into a "white elephant", that they're in way over their heads, the thing is still unfinished, the repairs they tried to implement are not done properly or particularly well, and they are stuck with a big, half-finished project that is worth a mere fraction of what they've poured into it.

Not saying this is the case here; I have no idea. But the unfortunate reality is that not every old, damaged boat is worth saving. At a certain point, it becomes more rational to salvage what you can and scrap the rest. At some point, a damaged boat can indeed become unrepairable.

Of course, that depends on various factors, and ultimately, only the boat's owner can make the decision for himself.

[domenic]

There was a time in my life when I wanted to fly a WW1 Fokker tri plane. There were only 23 of them in the world, all replicas. No one would let you fly theirs. If you wanted to fly one, you had to build it. I knew nothing about building an aireo plane. All I had was a set of plans I bought for $130.
I had to learn how to weld. That took six months. I had to learn woodwork that would not fall apart in the air…one year.
Let me tell you the feeling when it was done.
Sitting at the end of the runway, engine running. The sound of my heart louder than the engine. Family and friends covering their eyes. I knew what they were saying…”He’s crazy.” “Oh my God, he’s going to kill himself.”
I’m not afraid to say, I was terrified. I knew my tri was built good. I also knew most of the 118 built during WW1 were lost in take off. The plane is a squirrel. Within ten feet I had the tail up. Within fifty feet I was fifty feet in the air. I circled the little field once, and landed. God what a feeling. I did it. When my people rushed toward me, I pretended to be calm. Like it was nothing to brag about.
To this day those people tell others, “He built his own plane.” “Oh he’s a genius.” “He can do anything.” “Domenic, my refrigerator broke, can you fix it for me?”
I’m not a genius, and I can’t fix a broken refrigerator. But like anyone else, I can learn to do what any other human can. We all can do that. Money wise, I agree with Niel, it’s not worth it. But why sail off the never never land when you can fly there? Flying is a heck of a lot cheaper, and safer. Besides, being alone at sea in bad weather is terrifying. God it’s terrifying. God help me, I love it. My boat is stronger then the day she was built. And no, I’m not a genius. I’m a seamen. Let the land lubbers be slaves to working their self to death, and letting life pass them by. I have a sea going vessel, and she is alive, and well found.

[nicholasdeem]

Grampian 30

Thanks guys your of great help here:

I backed the boat up yesterday,tide went out and I got the water below the rudder inlet, viewed the damage from in and out, rudder pushed up tight on the exteroir reemed the hole a little but not bad, inside the neck surrounding the rudder shaft got slanted forward towards the bow,not bad but enough for water to get in ,1/8 inch cracks vertically at the base line where meets the haul,the negetive here is tide went out I can get it dryed out, but the rudder has to much wiedht on it and I cant glass it because it is on an angle, I need to try to get a couple pilings that are at the dock under the draft today so that the rudder will fall straight then I can begin repair, it will then give me that little extra the tide wont give me.

This boat has been my everything going through my divorce,she became my positive in my life, it has been loyal, A-4 starts every time and just purs, I have put very little back into it, it has been my fault it's biffed up, shouldn't have been so cheap and bought a depth finder,it was also my home and still really is,it also, as a chef is my stress relief, I am very mechanical,crafty and will get this minor issue fixed stronger than it was before.

I really want to get rid of the stearing system in the center of the back, love to get a motor, to make the rudder controll, this cable wheel thing is a pain comes slacked have to constantly repair and take sup my whole deck.

Nick

[nicholasdeem]

give upers?

man,

Yeh just read some of the replies, really every body does just like to give up today, I am 45 old school as well and take the value in things, were talking basically a haul repair here but some see as the end, I don't think so try to replace a 30 foot boat today, what would that cost, even if the draft is deteroirating I will sail her to her end.

Nick

[ILikeRust]

This boat has been my everything going through my divorce,she became my positive in my life, it has been loyal, A-4 starts every time and just purs, I have put very little back into it, it has been my fault it's biffed up, shouldn't have been so cheap and bought a depth finder,it was also my home and still really is,it also, as a chef is my stress relief, I am very mechanical,crafty and will get this minor issue fixed stronger than it was before.

O.K., sounds like you're in for a penny, in for a pound.

I really want to get rid of the stearing system in the center of the back, love to get a motor, to make the rudder controll, this cable wheel thing is a pain comes slacked have to constantly repair and take sup my whole deck.

One word: tiller.

Quite often, simple and low-tech is better. To rig up and install some kind of motor system to drive the rudder, on a 30-foot boat, seems to me unnecessarily complicated. What will you do when you're navigating a channel with traffic coming the other way and the motor craps out, or the drive chain or whatever you end up with comes off?

It's hard to get more dirt-simple or more reliable than a tiller. No cables, no linkages, nothing to slip off or need adjusting. And when you want it out of the way, you just flip it up. Then you have a wide-open cockpit. And you can keep a spare below decks for the unlikely event that it breaks.

Just offering it up as something to consider.

[domenic]

Do you have a name for the vessel nick?

[nicholasdeem]

Vessel

Wind Ward, was what has been on her, had a prevoius marriage similair to the Kardasians,,, was going to name her no drama

Nick

[Mark S]

Fair enough. Opinions vary and Domenic is entitled to his . . . It's your money and time so it's your decision . . .

What Neil said. Even old schoolers have a limit to their resources. I wish you the best, Nick.

Mark

[domenic]

My boat is 43 years old. The last owner left her at the dock for years. Green moss covered her decks. Been working on her going on two years. I wanted to give her a name which reflected she would never give up...Geronimo.

[sastanley]

Nick, Your latest couple of posts indicate that there isn't such catastrophic damage..but, I think to do a proper repair you need to haul the boat. The glass and surrounding area won't repair when it is wet..

I think you gotta haul it and let it dry out.

[dvd]

Nick,

If you need a new rudder there is a place in southern california called "Foss Foam" . They still have alot of the old molds for most older boats. Google foss foam and tell em what you have.
dvd

[ndutton]

Piece of worthless trivia again.

I actually knew Gene Foss 40 years ago. ALL the rudders for the SoCal manufacturers were made by him. When he retired around 1975 or so he sold Foss Foam to Lanny Coon who was the former engineer at Columbia/Coronado. I lost track after the late 70's.

There, aren't you glad you know that?

edit:
Just read their history page and it mentions a Chuck Foss. WOW, either Gene was a part of the operation or my memory is totally shot. I'm thinkin' 50-50 on that one.

[P30]

Fokker

There was a time in my life when I wanted to fly a WW1 Fokker tri plane

As a veteran, my dad was asked to talk to my son's 2nd grade class on veterans day. Another aged gentleman got up to speak first, "Bahh, I was in my Spad, when outta the sun these two Fokkers ..."

Well, the class started to laugh so loud that the teacher interrupted him to explain, "Class, the Fokker was a warplane, flown by the Germans and ..."

At which point the old gentleman interrupted her, stating emphatically, "But these two fokkers, they were in Messerschmidts!"

Sure you've heard it before but I couldn't resist. Anyhow, congrats on building that plane.

And best of luck with that repair.

[ILikeRust]

Maybe it was a couple o' Junkers.